(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[AGA]SZ[19]KM[7.50]TM[6600]
PW[John Tromp]PB[Many Faces of Go]WR[2d]BR[2d]DT[2010-12-28]CP[BGA]EV[Man/Machine Go Match]RO[1]PC[ISH, Great Portland Street, London, England]WT["Man"]BT["Machine"]US[N.S.Wedd]C[BGAmatches [-\]: the game will start in ten minutes
BGAmatches [-\]: starting soon
EpicPhail [2k\]: BGA will you use the same sgf file for the second game?
MilanMilan [9d\]: which game will be broadcast here?
EpicPhail [2k\]: maybe the second game man vs machine
EpicPhail [2k\]: starting in about 70 minutes
Drakovich [2d\]: is it playing same bot for all games??
gogonuts [5d\]: can change
gogonuts [5d\]: colors correct?
gogonuts [5d\]: same as last game?
Drakovich [2d\]: their bet has many loopholes
spelletjes [2d\]: what was the result of the 1-st game?
Iciac [4k\]: BGAmatches doesn't have it in his info, unfortunately
EpicPhail [2k\]: w+r
Iciac [4k\]: 1 to the man.
EpicPhail [2k\]: w killed 2 groups and b started playing irrational so that w could easily walk in b´s moyo and kill even more
Iciac [4k\]: haha bots :)
hugifrb [?\]: when will the second game start?
meredy: 18:00 GMT i think
BobWhoosta [2k\]: I do that all the time, I wonder, am I a bot?
Twin2: It's said that Darren gave up after the 158th move!
gogonuts [5d\]: probably will open a new demo with switched colors i guess
BobWhoosta [2k\]: Is he playing them even, or with handi?
gogonuts [5d\]: even
BGA: go
CapFuture: Hi there
CapFuture: is there any review already available for the first match?
EpicPhail [2k\]: yes - watch the dan comments
EpicPhail [2k\]: t9 and f13 were big mistakes by the machine
cuthalion [1k\]: mr tromp won the first match?
EpicPhail [2k\]: yes
gogonuts [5d\]: some long 10 minutes until game start :-)
CapFuture: sorry, i'm new here and just read about the matches on a german news page: where can i find those comments?
EpicPhail [2k\]: OPTIONS > VIEW OFFLINE
EpicPhail [2k\]: then use the arrows
CapFuture: k, thx :)
qgo [3k\]: at what time exactly will the game start?
Twin1: In Europe It's said at 5 o'clock
EpicPhail [2k\]: in 15 min
hauro [9k?\]: ah
Napsty: Usually I'm not at all a go player but this bet woke my interest. :)
somebody [3k?\]: http://www.computer-go.info/h-c/gobet/index.html
CapFuture: hehe, mine too
pwpw [5k\]: what website capfuture
EpicPhail [2k\]: napsty - you have to remember that this human is by far not the strongest human player
CapFuture: A german computer news page... heise.de
Napsty: extend the bet to 2020.. maybe the computer programs will be far stronger then ;)
pwpw [5k\]: ok
Napsty: @CapFuture yep I came from heise.de as well
CapFuture: ^^
Scherzkeks: me2
gogonuts [5d\]: they made the bet 10 years ago, programs couldnt break the 5 kyu barrier
hauro [9k?\]: who is the human oponent?
CapFuture: John Tromp
hauro [9k?\]: ah
hauro [9k?\]: thx
EpicPhail [2k\]: 10 years ago they did not use Monte carlo
gogonuts [5d\]: no wonder, sounds crazy :-)
ekkards: is there a possibility to view a replay the 1st game
gogonuts [5d\]: view local
cuthalion [1k\]: options > view offline
blorgh: Options only lists "Rules" and "Copy game to" for me. :-/
EpicPhail [2k\]: I think a mixture of montecarlo and knowledge databases + shapes would make the bot some stones stronger - maybe 3-5 stones - but to compete vs the best humans there has to be created a new better strategy 
gogonuts [5d\]: they already use a lot of go knowledge
gogonuts [5d\]: its not fully random
bikle [5k\]: Is there no relay of the Londen Open games ?
rgrsgsg: another one?
EpicPhail [2k\]: so this knowledge has to be developed further to make the bots improve
BGAmatches [-\]: the top two boards of the London Open are relayed on IGS
Napsty: by the way the assumption of John Tromp, that it might be a 64GB computer before 2011 wasn't bad at all. Only about the 4GHz cpu he was wrong (let out the possibility of multiple cores)
cuthalion [1k\]: blorgh, if you download the kgs applet you will be able to "view offline"
CapFuture: case base reasoning might help, but i guess a tree based search with a highly optimized prunning algorithm would also do the trick... but that all could be just work in my idealistic world :D
bikle [5k\]: Thanks BGAmatches
cuthalion [1k\]: BGA, why IGS?
BGAmatches [-\]: they are sponsors for the London Open
gogonuts [5d\]: the main problem they have now is that everything is handled globally, so multiple local problems interfere with each other
CapFuture: na, there are 4ghz CPUs out there... take a look on a powerpc 7 or 8... but not in a budget of 5k $
]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]C[BGAmatches [-\]: play has started
]
;B[cd]
;W[pp]
;B[nq]C[BGAmatches [-\]: dan players may comment
]
;W[pn]
;B[jq]C[BGAmatches [-\]: Black is Many Faces of Go,running on a hyperthreaded 4-core laptop
]
;W[ed]
;B[gc]
;W[cc]
;B[bc]
;W[dc]
;B[be]C[ajahuang [6d\]: B17 is new joseki. In the past D17 is a standard move.
ucbucuk [3d\]: i am surprised to see b17 played by a computer 
]
;W[ge]C[ajahuang [6d\]: B15 at C13, a common move in these 10 years.
]
;B[fp]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: b17 is not that new
Warfreak2 [4d\]: i learned this move 4 years ago before learning about d17 alternative
dolyby [2d\]: i think b17 is a newer trend move but not a new move
Warfreak2 [4d\]: i have games from 1903, 1908, 1909, 1910... where they play b17
]
;W[fq]C[ajahuang [6d\]: maybe I mistake, C13 is new but now B17.
Warfreak2 [4d\]: it's over 100 years old
ucbucuk [3d\]: is g15 true here? 
Warfreak2 [4d\]: c13 is relatively new
dolyby [2d\]: g15 is weird indeed
dolyby [2d\]: i think
ajahuang [6d\]: If I remember correctly, G15 at F15 is joseki.
]
;B[gq]C[ucbucuk [3d\]: if black k17 then i cant see white follow up 
]
;W[eq]C[ucbucuk [3d\]: f15 threatens c14 
BGAmatches [-\]: time limits are not as advertised - they are 110 minuted each sudden death
]
;B[id]C[BGAmatches [-\]: Black has used 8 minutes,White five minutes
Warfreak2 [4d\]: g15 not joseki afaik
cuthalion [1k\]: o good, i thought i was going to have to take the whole week off
ajahuang [6d\]: F15 is joseki, not G15
ajahuang [6d\]: then C14 and H16, White must have one
Rib [4d\]: g15 should be g16 or f15?
Warfreak2 [4d\]: if b c13 instead of b15, then g15 is joseki
Warfreak2 [4d\]: the point of f15 is so you have a followup on each side
]
;W[nc]
;B[oc]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: g15 provides no strong followup on left
ajahuang [6d\]: White might play C14
]
;W[nd]C[Rib [4d\]: yea but it stabilizes the group
]
;B[pf]C[ajahuang [6d\]: C14 is the strongest in this area
BGAmatches [-\]: p17, q14 wre played immediately
dolyby [2d\]: what's the MFOg's rank on kgs?
Warfreak2 [4d\]: 9d
ajahuang [6d\]: ManyFaces[2d\]
ajahuang [6d\]: ManyFaces1[2d\]
]
;W[ib]C[cuthalion [1k\]: k18?
Warfreak2 [4d\]: super mfog
]
;B[jc]C[ajahuang [6d\]: J18 is like an overplay
Rib [4d\]: l17 would've been good enough :/
Warfreak2 [4d\]: mfog doing fine sof ar
ibd [5k\]: Why didn't they let Zen play? It is stronger on KGS.
wingnoll [8k\]: lame that only dan's can comment
Iciac [4k\]: *sneaks in*
]
;W[jb]C[Talamasca [2k\]: j18 looks indeed like an overplay
EpicPhail [2k\]: Zen will win all games
]
;B[lc]C[verysober [?\]: who just lefT?
Warfreak2 [4d\]: zen's author did not allow it i think
spookas [5k\]: Zen's author didn't want it
Talamasca [2k\]: W should not be overconfident
Talamasca [2k\]: BGAmatche just left
Oloril [1d\]: Zen19 also plays under very different time settings, I'm not sure it's fair to compare them.
EpicPhail [2k\]: but tromp is under enormous pressure psychologically
elementc [?\]: Good, it's idiotic to put such a ridiculous restriction on the chat.
Warfreak2 [4d\]: he represents the human race!
ajahuang [6d\]: with slower time setting, Zen is similar with mfgo...
Warfreak2 [4d\]: go bot!
glimz [3d\]: for this game fee, even a pro would play
]
;W[kc]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: i'm rooting for the bot
ajahuang [6d\]: M17 is good
Warfreak2 [4d\]: i want a pro-level computer who can review my games
]
;B[kd]
;W[kb]
;B[nb]
;W[mb]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: mfog says "enjoy your 2nd-line connection
wingnoll [8k\]: ?
]
;B[lb]
;W[ob]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: what a blunder
glimz [3d\]: mfog saying oops now
dolyby [2d\]: m18 is ... sort of unthinkable.. but then he's a computer
]
;B[mf]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: it's thinkable
ajahuang [6d\]: M18 and N14, so strange.
glimz [3d\]: yeah, mfog hadn't thought it out
Warfreak2 [4d\]: it almost works in fact
Rib [4d\]: yes, it separates the groups but in this case it's not really good
Drakovich [2d\]: now is chat back
Warfreak2 [4d\]: well it doesn't separate the groups
BGAmatches [-\]: John: "didn't see that coming"
Rib [4d\]: m19 "works"
cuthalion [1k\]: w can still connect when he wants
dolyby [2d\]: m18 is just very bad
dolyby [2d\]: should have just p18
glimz [3d\]: but what is white's move now?
glimz [3d\]: tenuki?
Warfreak2 [4d\]: m19 doesn't work
Warfreak2 [4d\]: w will cut at m16
ajahuang [6d\]: R8 for Black is so big now
Rib [4d\]: m19 m16 n16 m15 n17 o19 n15 
]
;W[hd]C[Rib [4d\]: but ofcourse m19 is a bad move :P
]
;B[hb]C[ajahuang [6d\]: ya, m19 is bad
ajahuang [6d\]: H18 is worse...
cuthalion [1k\]: odd choice
cuthalion [1k\]: not sure what b sees with this move
]
;W[hc]C[dolyby [2d\]: maybe computer is on something
cuthalion [1k\]: must have a virus ^^
]
;B[ql]C[glimz [3d\]: does the operator of MFoG get anything from this match?
ibd [5k\]: r8 like ajahuang said
BGAmatches [-\]: there's a $1000 bet between him and John
cuthalion [1k\]: q8?
glimz [3d\]: oh, I didn't realize it was the same guy
ibd [5k\]: glimz, it's not the same person as the developer of MFoG, though.
glimz [3d\]: thx
dolyby [2d\]: i don't think b is playing like 2d..
ibd [5k\]: He gets free advertisement if his program wins ;)
ajahuang [6d\]: Q18 then M19
ajahuang [6d\]: big for Black
glimz [3d\]: "I'm the operator with my pocket calculator".. i can't get this out of my head ever since i said operator
]
;W[cf]C[ibd [5k\]: sounds like kraftwerk
gogonuts [5d\]: first b should have pincered o17 at m17
ajahuang [6d\]: C13, standard respond.
gogonuts [5d\]: then w should have played L17 instead of the thin J18
]
;B[pb]C[gogonuts [5d\]: then b should have protected at m15 instead of o18
]
;W[na]C[ibd [5k\]: isn't q18 aji-keshi?
gogonuts [5d\]: no, its ok
]
;B[qq]
;W[pq]C[glimz [3d\]: c14 seems out of order somehow
]
;B[pr]C[gogonuts [5d\]: i agree, the right side needed attention
]
;W[or]C[BGAmatches [-\]: Black has used 24 minutes, W 9
ibd [5k\]: not r4? :o
gogonuts [5d\]: but good choice here by w
ajahuang [6d\]: P2 is right
gogonuts [5d\]: r3 didnt work so well it seems
]
;B[qr]
;W[oq]C[ajahuang [6d\]: R4 has no potential, since there is a black stone at R8
ajahuang [6d\]: and P2 can damage O3
gogonuts [5d\]: b will have to play s5 soon, but that doesnt fit with r8
]
;B[ro]C[gogonuts [5d\]: o2 first?
gogonuts [5d\]: nope :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: o4 looks satisfactory for w now
ibd [5k\]: what other options does w have?
ibd [5k\]: play at top left again?
gogonuts [5d\]: he can burn bis feet at s6 :-)
Drakovich [2d\]: nice
Drakovich [2d\]: white cant cut off b i think
gogonuts [5d\]: its really only o4
]
;W[np]C[gogonuts [5d\]: w ahead now imo
ajahuang [6d\]: now we can claim W is leading safely
]
;B[mq]C[gogonuts [5d\]: keep pushing
]
;W[mp]C[gogonuts [5d\]: if b m4, w hane
cuthalion [1k\]: n2 seems bad
cuthalion [1k\]: n3*
]
;B[lp]C[gogonuts [5d\]: b not happy that w secured his group :-)
]
;W[lo]C[glimz [3d\]: does b have feelings?
gogonuts [5d\]: no, I have phantom empathy :-)
]
;B[le]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: is W b14 an option?
ibd [5k\]: this seems slow
gogonuts [5d\]: not yet
gogonuts [5d\]: m19 is fine
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 31 minutes, B 12
]
;W[la]C[BGAmatches [-\]: of 110 minutes each, sudden death
gogonuts [5d\]: thx
]
;B[bf]C[glimz [3d\]: sudden death is evil... wonder if bot is programmed to take advantage of it ^^
ibd [5k\]: what winning percentage does mf think it has?
EpicPhail [2k\]: hm 4 hours gameplay and then with only a few minutes break the next game - tough for w
BGAmatches [-\]: bot can't really manage any kind of overtime whan the game is being played on a real board
gogonuts [5d\]: nobi is fine
gogonuts [5d\]: makes sense
BGAmatches [-\]: it woudln't know how much time it has left
gogonuts [5d\]: its enough time like this
]
;W[ch]C[gogonuts [5d\]: solid nobi was better imo 
]
;B[bh]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: m3 looks big - m3 m2 L4 I suppose
gogonuts [5d\]: w doesnt have time for m3
gogonuts [5d\]: at some point b L4, w n6
EpicPhail [2k\]: c11 now?
gogonuts [5d\]: maybe b13
EpicPhail [2k\]: b13 ends in gote
BGAmatches [-\]: at the last timecheck W had used 26 minutes, not 31 as I reported
gogonuts [5d\]: encourage b to crawl :-)
]
;W[bg]C[BGAmatches [-\]: W has now used 29 minutes, B 19
EpicPhail [2k\]: b18 looksvery alive to me
]
;B[ag]
;W[cg]C[gogonuts [5d\]: b a13, w c13 makes w thick in the center
Oloril [1d\]: Alive or dead isn't the question, it's the cost of that life.
gogonuts [5d\]: and if b tenukis w b11 is sente
]
;B[bi]
;W[cj]C[ibd [5k\]: http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player_Card.php?&key=10598984
gogonuts [5d\]: now r12 looks good
gogonuts [5d\]: continuing also ok
glimz [3d\]: actually W is strong 2d
]
;B[ci]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: top right might become large after B p8
]
;W[di]C[gogonuts [5d\]: yes, nasty 2d :-)
glimz [3d\]: or was in 2005
]
;B[bj]C[gogonuts [5d\]: b d10 not promising
]
;W[ck]C[gogonuts [5d\]: because w b10 would have been sente
EpicPhail [2k\]: nice crawling
gogonuts [5d\]: but this is great for w
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 30 minutes, B 22
gogonuts [5d\]: b must really keep crawling
gogonuts [5d\]: b9 would be wonderful for w
EpicPhail [2k\]: maybe w exploited an crawling error when testing mfog
]
;B[kp]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: b18 now?
gogonuts [5d\]: b9
]
;W[bb]C[cuthalion [1k\]: b9 bigger
cuthalion [1k\]: maybe not :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: b9 was better
gogonuts [5d\]: getting b9 in sente would have been great
]
;B[bk]C[gogonuts [5d\]: dont hane mr w :-)
EpicPhail [2k\]: w needs some reducing in the top right corner very soon
]
;W[cl]C[cuthalion [1k\]: if w n6 b p8?
]
;B[bl]C[BGAmatches [-\]: you are seeing the board from Black's side - not that it matters
glimz [3d\]: well W did get a wonderful crawl outta B18
gogonuts [5d\]: w has a good position, so i would prefer n6 to r12 for w
]
;W[cm]C[MilanMilan [9d\]: London Open gonna start soon?
gogonuts [5d\]: should be under way
BGAmatches [-\]: registration at the moment
BGAmatches [-\]: first round starts at 14:30
MilanMilan [9d\]: cool
gogonuts [5d\]: the good thing for w is that b cant live in sente
MilanMilan [9d\]: Thanks^^
]
;B[bm]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: BGA do you have any information on the winning percentages of MFOG?
gogonuts [5d\]: now hane
gogonuts [5d\]: needed for sente
BGAmatches [-\]: no - anyway it depends on hardware
]
;W[bn]C[ajahuang [6d\]: too bad for Black
dolyby [2d\]:  b .... misery
MilanMilan [9d\]: btw, do you see Wangwei, Antti and Andrew kay?
BGAmatches [-\]: it's now 13:15
]
;B[cn]C[BGAmatches [-\]: I've seen Wangwei and Andrew Kay
EpicPhail [2k\]: overplay
]
;W[bo]C[MilanMilan [9d\]: :)
gogonuts [5d\]: b not happy with gote
gogonuts [5d\]: but cant avoid it
BGAmatches [-\]: I mean, seen them here
BGAmatches [-\]: I haven't ime to visit the playing rooms
]
;B[dj]C[gogonuts [5d\]: e11
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 32 minutes, B 26
cuthalion [1k\]: b in losing mode?
gogonuts [5d\]: dont allow b c15 to become sente
gogonuts [5d\]: b fighting for sente
cuthalion [1k\]: i see
gogonuts [5d\]: if nothing funny happens this result is great for w
Drakovich [2d\]: What can b do here?
ajahuang [6d\]: E11 should be safe
gogonuts [5d\]: a18, then c15 is all imo
gogonuts [5d\]: after w e11
gogonuts [5d\]: plas a little squeezing in the center
glimz [3d\]: b dead locally?
gogonuts [5d\]: no
gogonuts [5d\]: but has to play
ibd [5k\]: how do you strong players estimate b's chances of winning still?
]
;W[dn]C[gogonuts [5d\]: w just gave up sente
gogonuts [5d\]: too bad
BGAmatches [-\]: W: "ach, what the heck"
ajahuang [6d\]: we don't estimate chances of winning, just which one is ahead... I think
gogonuts [5d\]: then again, now w should ignore b a18
]
;B[dh]
;W[ei]C[ajahuang [6d\]: which one is ahead is decided by the territory (solid or potential)
ibd [5k\]: well then how much is w ahead? :)
]
;B[ol]C[gogonuts [5d\]: answer
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 35 mins, B 28
gogonuts [5d\]: keep it simple
gogonuts [5d\]: w n6
ajahuang [6d\]: W is ahead >=10 points, in my opinion
ibd [5k\]: thanks.
glimz [3d\]: W has psychological advantage
glimz [3d\]: :P
]
;W[mn]C[gogonuts [5d\]: go for the kill at c15 later
BGAmatches [-\]: MFoG thinks its chance of winning is 51%
glimz [3d\]: whaa?
gogonuts [5d\]: thats pretty optimistic :-)
]
;B[jn]C[Oloril [1d\]: MFoG must be using SE.
]
;W[rn]C[gogonuts [5d\]: but its natural to overestimate your own chances - you attribute your blindspots to your opponent
glimz [3d\]: direct connection to the god of go is forbidden in tournament play
ajahuang [6d\]: 51% is really too optimistic
]
;B[qo]
;W[qn]C[ajahuang [6d\]: 35-40% might be a reasonable range
]
;B[po]C[Drakovich [2d\]: f11 keeps staring at me for no reason >_>
]
;W[oo]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: s6 + gote was bad - what do you think?
gogonuts [5d\]: can w kill at c15? the aji looks just managable to me
ajahuang [6d\]: now to kill the bottom-right corner, if Black tenuki?
ajahuang [6d\]: how?
gogonuts [5d\]: t5
gogonuts [5d\]: classic kill
ajahuang [6d\]: it's a test for kyu players, gogo :)
gogonuts [5d\]: sry
ucbucuk [3d\]: only dan players are allowed to comment :) 
gogonuts [5d\]: lol
ajahuang [6d\]: really?
EpicPhail [2k\]: haha
gogonuts [5d\]: that makes it a hard test for kyu players
]
;B[on]
;W[om]C[Oloril [1d\]: What is the best move for black to protect?
gogonuts [5d\]: r4
BGAmatches [-\]: W "that's not helping him"
BGAmatches [-\]: W sounds confident
gogonuts [5d\]: p6 was mildly insane
glimz [3d\]: "what is B thinking..."
]
;B[nm]
;W[nn]C[gogonuts [5d\]: thinking "I will make him overcofident" :-)
Sandmann [5d\]: do not personify bots, they hate it
gogonuts [5d\]: confident
gogonuts [5d\]: lol
glimz [3d\]: haha
gogonuts [5d\]: b has w groups now that need a move to live
dolyby [2d\]: b still needs r4
gogonuts [5d\]: 2 groups, sry
]
;B[pm]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: game over soon?
gogonuts [5d\]: no
BGAmatches [-\]: I think B is in panic mode
]
;W[on]C[gogonuts [5d\]: bots are good at going crazy
ajahuang [6d\]: BGAmatches, who are you?
glimz [3d\]: B panicks when it thinks it has over 50% chance of win?
BGAmatches [-\]: Nick Wedd
ajahuang [6d\]: Oh I see
ajahuang [6d\]: thanks
BGAmatches [-\]: that is why I make 3k comments  :)
Oloril [1d\]: How does MFoG approach tsumego?
ajahuang [6d\]: I thought you are high dan :)
]
;B[nl]C[glimz [3d\]: he does 30 tsumego before breakfast
glimz [3d\]: and 30 after
EpicPhail [2k\]: t5
gogonuts [5d\]: it doesnt :-)
ucbucuk [3d\]: wow, did robot read semeai? 
gogonuts [5d\]: its all a full board problem
]
;W[so]C[gogonuts [5d\]: good
EpicPhail [2k\]: b thinks the corner is small
ajahuang [6d\]: can't see any chance for Black, G2, R17 are both big
gogonuts [5d\]: but b has to answer
gogonuts [5d\]: he still wants to pressure w
ajahuang [6d\]: N11 around can invade
ibd [5k\]: s4?
ajahuang [6d\]: Black is really losing
]
;B[rp]C[gogonuts [5d\]: if b s4
gogonuts [5d\]: w should move out in the center first imo
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 38 mins, B 35
gogonuts [5d\]: but q1 would win i guess
glimz [3d\]: q1 is correct killing mvoe now?
gogonuts [5d\]: yes
ucbucuk [3d\]: a 2d may think of m8 :) 
gogonuts [5d\]: turn it into Lshape
EpicPhail [2k\]: glimz failed the kyu test
gogonuts [5d\]: m8 is attractive
gogonuts [5d\]: i might play m8
glimz [3d\]: my reading is kyu-grade for sure
glimz [3d\]: but i did think q1 is correct, just not sure :P
gogonuts [5d\]: hard choice, eat or take a walk :-)
]
;W[ce]C[gogonuts [5d\]: that tough
gogonuts [5d\]: possible imo
gogonuts [5d\]: leave m8 and q1 as miai
ucbucuk [3d\]: m8 seems correct to me 
gogonuts [5d\]: m7 is the classic bot response :-)
]
;B[lm]C[gogonuts [5d\]: lol
]
;W[rl]C[gogonuts [5d\]: no
ajahuang [6d\]: yes
gogonuts [5d\]: kill
glimz [3d\]: haha good call
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 40 mins, B 36
gogonuts [5d\]: poor plan here
ajahuang [6d\]: except mfgo has life-and-death module in search
]
;B[rk]C[gogonuts [5d\]: b will get t4 in sente if w builds an eye there
gogonuts [5d\]: suddenly b is ok
ajahuang [6d\]: Black's left group is all dead, really big.
gogonuts [5d\]: b d15 is a nasty question though
]
;W[qm]C[gogonuts [5d\]: i think b can get a good squeeze in the center with d15
gogonuts [5d\]: that would coordinate wll with the rest
]
;B[qk]C[cuthalion [1k\]:  
ucbucuk [3d\]: t8 right move here? 
]
;W[sl]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: t9 overplay?
]
;B[sp]
;W[sn]C[gogonuts [5d\]: now d15
ucbucuk [3d\]: what is white response to d15 
EpicPhail [2k\]: e13?
ucbucuk [3d\]: i couldnt find a good answer
gogonuts [5d\]: d13 imo
gogonuts [5d\]: cant cut
ucbucuk [3d\]: then white shape would have some problems 
glimz [3d\]: can bot come up with a move such as d15?
gogonuts [5d\]: because b b16 is sente for life
gogonuts [5d\]: yes
]
;B[sk]C[gogonuts [5d\]: blind groping, but yes
wade [5d\]: t2 kills
gogonuts [5d\]: oops
BGAmatches [-\]: W has used 44 mins, B 39
glimz [3d\]: bravo B
gogonuts [5d\]: t9???
gogonuts [5d\]: insane
gogonuts [5d\]: is kills?
ucbucuk [3d\]: white g13 important imo 
glimz [3d\]: i would play something even more conservative
glimz [3d\]: just to win won game
glimz [3d\]: after T9
EpicPhail [2k\]: tengen!
gogonuts [5d\]: your right
BGAmatches [-\]: W mutters about killing the left edge
Sandmann [5d\]: i wonder what b is thinking
gogonuts [5d\]: because r4 becomes atari after w t3
gogonuts [5d\]: t9 was a relly dissapointing play
Drakovich [2d\]: omg t9
gogonuts [5d\]: yes, terrible
ajahuang [6d\]: why T9 is to terrible?
ajahuang [6d\]: gogo?
gogonuts [5d\]: gote
glimz [3d\]: can't somehow someone code into the bot: don't play 1st line moves unless you're killing or living
gogonuts [5d\]: for what?
ucbucuk [3d\]: just not big enough 
ajahuang [6d\]: I see
ajahuang [6d\]: agree
EpicPhail [2k\]: is there a way to live in the top right corner starting with r18?
glimz [3d\]: it will make up in strength for the crappy endgame the bot will have :P
Sandmann [5d\]: phail that would be challenging the t9 wall
ucbucuk [3d\]: probably white trying to decide which group to kill :) 
]
;W[sr]C[glimz [3d\]: isnt B already dead on the left?
wade [5d\]: yes
ucbucuk [3d\]: i cant read the variations after d15 
ucbucuk [3d\]: not that strong 
]
;B[rr]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: what does mfog think in %?
]
;W[qp]C[HYamashita [3k\]: bent4?
glimz [3d\]: not even bent4
ibd [5k\]: dead
Sandmann [5d\]: will b die in sente?
HYamashita [3k\]: oh...
ibd [5k\]: s3 s1 r1 t1 
Rib [4d\]: s3 tenuki
]
;B[fg]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: e13?
BGAmatches [-\]: W has 60 minutes left, B has 69
ibd [5k\]: does b want to build his moyo?
glimz [3d\]: T9 bad, F13 terrible?
ajahuang [6d\]: this 2d is strong
ajahuang [6d\]: I mean John Tromp
]
;W[eg]C[glimz [3d\]: his last tourney in EGD is in 2005 as a pretty strong 2d, almost 3d
EpicPhail [2k\]: f13 biggest thank you move after t9
]
;B[gh]C[glimz [3d\]: maybe he improved further
gogonuts [5d\]: in a row :-)
guxxan [5d\]: test
ajahuang [6d\]: guxxan we can't see you
guxxan [5d\]: ooo, I can leave message now
BGAmatches [-\]: W has started eating a sandwich
gogonuts [5d\]: before t9 b had a good chance again
Drakovich [2d\]: what is bot % winning rate?
Drakovich [2d\]: what it thinks
Warfreak2 [4d\]: hello london
Warfreak2 [4d\]: how do you like man-machine go matches?
EpicPhail [2k\]: eating a sandwich to make b nervous - nice plan
glimz [3d\]: you giving a concert, Warfreak?
gogonuts [5d\]: maybe the problem is, that b actually had a great position before t9 - bots tend to turn their own great position into good positions :-)
Warfreak2 [4d\]: a go concert
ibd [5k\]: g8 for b next
]
;W[eh]C[Drakovich [2d\]: Hmm B actually quite huge
Drakovich [2d\]: unless w break in
Oloril [1d\]: Left and bottow right are rather significant though.
guxxan [5d\]: White has more than 100 points now
Drakovich [2d\]: Oh forgot b died
Oloril [1d\]: And now d15 doesn't look like it does anything.
ajahuang [6d\]: no chance for Black, really
ajahuang [6d\]: it should be 10=20%
ajahuang [6d\]: 10-20%
]
;B[hi]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: w cannot lose
]
;W[nf]C[gogonuts [5d\]: what does mf think?
Rib [4d\]: difference seems to be about 50 points
BGAmatches [-\]: hoping to find wht B thinks
EpicPhail [2k\]: w can overplay now
BGAmatches [-\]: B now 38%
gogonuts [5d\]: mf probably missed t2
BGAmatches [-\]: W has 56 minutes left, B has 65
]
;B[ac]C[gogonuts [5d\]: 38 is actually quite low, its not winning chances, its playout results
BGAmatches [-\]: totalis 110 minutes each, sudden death
]
;W[bd]C[gogonuts [5d\]: hopeless
gogonuts [5d\]: makes kill nice and safe
]
;B[ne]
;W[oe]C[glimz [3d\]: o15 kinda makes a not so great move (O14) good
]
;B[ff]C[gogonuts [5d\]: David Fotland will brod over t9 and f13 :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: brood
EpicPhail [2k\]: is it usual for bots to fail at tsumego in a real game? Or why did it get killed 2 times?
glimz [3d\]: they sometimes don't recognize important stones
gogonuts [5d\]: it can be hard to know, sometimes they misread, sometimes they ignore on purpose
]
;W[me]C[gogonuts [5d\]: good imo
gogonuts [5d\]: nothing b can do
BGAmatches [-\]: W has 54 minutes left,, B has 63
EpicPhail [2k\]: r15 + r18+ r17 looks nice
gogonuts [5d\]: the b moyo went up in flames
gogonuts [5d\]: huge win for w now
]
;B[hf]C[gogonuts [5d\]: i recommend safety play at g10
]
;W[pe]C[gogonuts [5d\]: also fine
Drakovich [2d\]: !
Drakovich [2d\]: Big hole
gogonuts [5d\]: just keep punishing b
gogonuts [5d\]: take this, nasty bot, and that!
]
;B[qe]C[gogonuts [5d\]: r14 works easily
EpicPhail [2k\]: r14 or r16?
]
;W[qf]C[glimz [3d\]: is the resign option on? (if there is one)
gogonuts [5d\]: yes, but not a well used one
gogonuts [5d\]: :-)
]
;B[qg]C[gogonuts [5d\]: resigning never won a game is the usual bot motto
]
;W[rf]C[BGAmatches [-\]: I think it is on, but MFoG does not resign early (as, say, valkyria does)
glimz [3d\]: no need to implement something that doesn't help you win, right :)
gogonuts [5d\]: atleast its not really worth making a big project out of
]
;B[ej]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: I thought the time constraints are pretty hard for both - Imagine a close game with 250++ moves and sudden death in the second match of the day
gogonuts [5d\]: dont resign too early is the most important requirement
BGAmatches [-\]: the players discussed the time limits before starting, 110 minutes sudden death is what they agreed on
gogonuts [5d\]: the human must aim at finishing in 90 min.
]
;W[fj]C[glimz [3d\]: i am sure the bot agreed grudgingly
EpicPhail [2k\]: why do they play on a real board?
glimz [3d\]: bot refused to play otherwise
Oloril [1d\]: Bot just uses an unsigned int for time so when he runs out it just overflows to maximum.
EpicPhail [2k\]: that makes it also much harder for the bot
gogonuts [5d\]: to make it more real :-)
]
;B[ph]
;W[qd]C[BGAmatches [-\]: W has 52 mins left, B has 58
]
;B[rd]
;W[re]C[ajahuang [6d\]: mfgo plays not so good in this game. I expect it performs better in the next one.
Drakovich [2d\]: how bot play on real board?
]
;B[qc]C[glimz [3d\]: robotic arm?
EpicPhail [2k\]: human plays the stones
BGAmatches [-\]: its operator copies moves from his screen to board, & from board to computer
Drakovich [2d\]: okay
Drakovich [2d\]: robotic arm! XD
]
;W[qe]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: which consumes a lot of time that the bot does not have in order to run
BGAmatches [-\]: indeed
]
;B[lf]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: hands up
Drakovich [2d\]: Wonder how they choose who to play against the bot
]
;W[nh]C[glimz [3d\]: he chose himself by making that bet?
EpicPhail [2k\]: yes
wingnoll [8k\]: information on the match here http://www.computer-go.info/h-c/gobet/index.html
gogonuts [5d\]: this is approaching the mf resign zone
Drakovich [2d\]: ah the link works now thx
Drakovich [2d\]: juz now it wouldnt load
]
;B[dl]C[gogonuts [5d\]: still to muddled on the left, so it wont resign
]
;W[dm]C[gogonuts [5d\]: muddled stuff like that on the left actually puts a great load on the bot
gogonuts [5d\]: every move he has to rediscover that nothing works :-)
Drakovich [2d\]: should have let him play the 4d zen
]
;B[el]C[BGAmatches [-\]: Zen didn't want to play
EpicPhail [2k\]: isn´t he able to save his previous local branches?
glimz [3d\]: he didn't want to let his software be run by others?
EpicPhail [2k\]: d16 to make the bot resign
Warfreak2 [4d\]: what colour is the clock?
BGAmatches [-\]: the clock is black
BGAmatches [-\]: W has 48 mins left, B has 52
]
;W[fm]C[BGAmatches [-\]: it is a real clockwork clock, not an electronic one
EpicPhail [2k\]: F7 prepares oiotoshi
glimz [3d\]: as contrast to the player?
]
;B[em]
;W[en]C[gogonuts [5d\]: when john goes up 3:0 darren will beg zen to intervene :-)
]
;B[ie]C[gogonuts [5d\]: e7 was especially awful
Drakovich [2d\]: technically the bet isn't very fair cos there could be a bot that could beat him (zen)
EpicPhail [2k\]: after 2 rounds a better computer will be used
Drakovich [2d\]: juz that zen doesnt wanna play
]
;W[qi]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: resign please
gogonuts [5d\]: this is like the knight in monty python :-)
]
;B[ic]C[Warfreak2 [4d\]: ni
Drakovich [2d\]: just thought of something
Drakovich [2d\]: if john doesnt play the match he will never get beaten
Drakovich [2d\]: ...
BGAmatches [-\]: W has 41 minutes left, B has 49
]
;W[fe]
;B[gd]
;W[he]C[gogonuts [5d\]: mf will stay in kothreat mode until it resigns
]
;B[gb]C[glimz [3d\]: the thing is, the ko threats are not big enough
EpicPhail [2k\]: so T7 next???
glimz [3d\]: never mind that there is no ko
gogonuts [5d\]: e14 :-)
]
;W[ef]C[gogonuts [5d\]: good
gogonuts [5d\]: nothing left to try
MilanMilan [9d\]: hi, andrew, 
EpicPhail [2k\]: needs d16 as well
BGAmatches [-\]: W has 44 mins left, B has 47
MilanMilan [9d\]: who will you play with in the first round?
]
;B[pi]C[gogonuts [5d\]: s17 good enough
BGAmatches [-\]: (first round starts in three minutes)
]
;W[gr]C[gogonuts [5d\]: removes ko in the corner and dashes all b hopes here
]
;B[ng]
;W[og]C[EpicPhail [2k\]: i think w has to play honte moves to show the bot that even if a huge ko comes up the bot cannot save his group with 1 ko threat
BGAmatches [-\]: Black has resigned
gogonuts [5d\]: thx for the game
solune [2k\]: congrats to John
EpicPhail [2k\]: thx
ibd [5k\]: thanks Nick
BGAmatches [-\]: that is, Darren resigned for it
EpicPhail [2k\]: next game in 2,5h?
solune [2k\]: and thx gogonuts for the comments
gogonuts [5d\]: thx :-)
wingnoll [8k\]: yes thx
gogonuts [5d\]: darren needs to get zen on the phone :-)
BGAmatches [-\]: round two should start about 16:00
ibd [5k\]: any idea when the next game will take place?
BGAmatches [-\]: 90 minutes from now
ibd [5k\]: will it be MF playing once again?
EpicPhail [2k\]: now comes the secret weapon: ZEN will play !!! xDD
gogonuts [5d\]: in bot competitions mf is doing well, but against humans it seems to lag compared to zen
ibd [5k\]: maybe because zen is more of a fighter
ibd [5k\]: mf plays more old fashioned
ibd [5k\]: anyways I'll be back later, cya
EpicPhail [2k\]: zen 5d in blitz and 4d in other time modes
gogonuts [5d\]: the new version of zen has gone back to its street fighting roots :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: 5d only for a short time
gogonuts [5d\]: but could hold 4d
gogonuts [5d\]: still 2d in long thinking mode
EpicPhail [2k\]: did you play both zen19 and zen19b?
gogonuts [5d\]: and 19n
gogonuts [5d\]: the long version
EpicPhail [2k\]: nice and what do you think?
gogonuts [5d\]: it crushed me on 4 and has even chances on 3
gogonuts [5d\]: its good
EpicPhail [2k\]: of their level _ and b and n
gogonuts [5d\]: the bot doesnt need a lot of time to do its thing
gogonuts [5d\]: so the humans usually get intop trouble somewhere
gogonuts [5d\]: it seemed 19b could really hold 4d
gogonuts [5d\]: a lot of hack and slay :-)
EpicPhail [2k\]: hahaha
glimz [3d\]: did B resign?
])
