(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[7]KM[0.50]TM[0]OT[9x30 byo-yomi]
PW[nutngo]PB[ManyFaces1]DT[2009-08-21]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[ManyFaces1 [-\]: GTP Engine for ManyFaces1 (black): Many Faces of Go version 12 (2008 world champion), playing at level 2 kyu. Uses Many Faces' knowledge combined with Monte Carlo evaluation. Free evaluation download at www.smart-games.com.
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[dp]BL[30]OB[9]
;B[pd]BL[30]OB[9]
;B[dd]BL[30]OB[9]
;B[pp]BL[30]OB[9]
;B[jj]BL[30]OB[9]
;B[dj]BL[30]OB[9]
;B[pj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[no]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ne]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cf]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ee]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[eg]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[eo]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[cq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ep]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[eq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[do]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[co]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: is this main game?
]
;B[dm]BL[30]OB[9]C[ztw [?\]: yes
]
;W[cm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[dl]BL[30]OB[9]C[goIngo [-\]: moyo in the making ?!
yoyoma [1d\]: White is Chun-Hsun Chou 9p?
]
;W[de]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[df]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ce]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[fd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[od]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ob]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qe]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rd]WL[30]OW[9]C[ztw [?\]: yes, White is Chou 9p
]
;B[rc]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[re]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rf]WL[30]OW[9]C[gghideki [3k\]: B Q15 is joseki?
]
;B[qg]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rh]BL[30]OB[9]C[gghideki [3k\]: instead of P16
]
;W[qh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qi]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ph]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: can someone (joxn?!) give percentages for MFoG?
]
;B[rj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mb]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: I can, but it is pretty boring right now.  80% win rate
]
;B[ld]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pq]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: thx, 80 is a nice number
]
;B[qq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qp]WL[30]OW[9]C[yoyoma [1d\]: let us know when something exciting happens  :D
goIngo [-\]: good idea
]
;B[oq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pr]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: for instance barrier 75 %
goIngo [-\]: or 90 % ;-)
]
;B[op]BL[30]OB[9]C[joxn [-\]: okay!
]
;W[qo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[or]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rr]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: its win rate doesn't take into account the fact that it's playing a 9p
yoyoma [1d\]: :D
goIngo [-\]: yes, but we can translate
]
;B[qm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[en]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hp]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: each one in his own language ;-)
]
;B[iq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[go]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hq]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[me]WL[30]OW[9]C[stg [2d\]: maybe now down to 75%?
]
;B[nf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nd]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: this reminds me on my childhood
]
;B[oe]BL[30]OB[9]C[goIngo [-\]: each sunday we had to walk with our parents
]
;W[le]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: our typical questrion was:
]
;B[mg]BL[30]OB[9]C[goIngo [-\]: father, do we alread have half of the way?
]
;W[pn]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[pm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[on]WL[30]OW[9]C[yoyoma [1d\]: :)
]
;B[nn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[om]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: the reason for this formulation was
]
;B[nm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ol]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: that our father had become angry when we asked "When are we there"
]
;B[cb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[bb]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: now 74.8%
]
;B[eb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ca]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gm]BL[30]OB[9]C[goIngo [-\]: next levels 70 and/or 80
]
;W[io]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ok]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[oj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jo]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ko]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nk]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[mk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ni]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mj]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lj]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[mi]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[nh]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[kp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[lp]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[lo]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[eh]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[in]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[hl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[im]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[il]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ik]BL[30]OB[9]C[joxn [-\]: 69.6%
goIngo [-\]: oooooh
]
;W[gl]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: we are falling
]
;B[hk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sh]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ri]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qb]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: 64.3% -- last 5 moves have made the computer very sad
goIngo [-\]: ouououoouh
]
;B[qa]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sd]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[kd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[md]WL[30]OW[9]C[fotland [?\]: weak playouts where there is a semeai on the baord
fotland [?\]: like in upper right
]
;B[qn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[po]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: 59.2%
]
;B[lb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[dg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[cl]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ef]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ff]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ei]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ej]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fi]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[di]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fb]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[db]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ed]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ec]BL[30]OB[9]C[floss [5k\]: ...yes goingo?
]
;W[ea]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: you can ask here
]
;B[ed]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[da]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[gd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ke]WL[30]OW[9]C[floss [5k\]: which is better than cg room?
goIngo [-\]: right, because we all are here
]
;B[je]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[jf]WL[30]OW[9]C[floss [5k\]: anyway, define playout please?
]
;B[kf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[fg]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[df]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ie]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[jd]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ef]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: a playout is a pseudo-random game
floss [5k\]: a whole game?
fotland [?\]: yes, a full game
]
;B[pa]BL[30]OB[9]C[floss [5k\]: with no reading?
]
;W[fh]WL[30]OW[9]C[floss [5k\]: other than game line i mean
fotland [?\]: ManyFaces is playing about 2 to 3 million full games for each move it makes
]
;B[oa]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[nb]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: "reading" is hidden in the pseudo
floss [5k\]: impressive speed
]
;B[ra]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sb]WL[30]OW[9]C[ztw [?\]: how about the percend?
joxn [-\]: 46.9%
]
;B[na]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ma]WL[30]OW[9]C[LapinBlanc [?\]: There is reading for a couple of moves, and them moves become pseudo-random until the end of the game
fotland [?\]: bad semeai evaluation again for a bad ko threat
]
;B[bp]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[bo]WL[30]OW[9]C[fotland [?\]: now it play desperate moves, then resign
K2na [?\]: this is looking ugly
]
;B[bm]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[bq]WL[30]OW[9]C[Narayana [5k\]: yeah how many moves til res
Narayana [5k\]: 3?
LapinBlanc [?\]: I think the semai in the top right corner completely ruined ManyFaces' evaluation for the whole game
floss [5k\]: so there is a shallow, probably narrow tree, then each leaf does severeal playouts and averages them?
goIngo [-\]: strong play be the pro
]
;B[ap]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[aq]WL[30]OW[9]C[fotland [?\]: yes.  tree maybe 10 moves
]
;B[mf]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[qk]WL[30]OW[9]C[fotland [?\]: 10 moves deep, over 100,000 positions
goIngo [-\]: question to zen-author: how does zen evaluate this?
TheBOrg [7k\]: oh is 7 handi?
]
;B[ro]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[rp]WL[30]OW[9]C[Pyari [-\]: oh phew
joxn [-\]: 36.9%
floss [5k\]: does it learn?
Pyari [-\]: thought it was even
Pyari [-\]: ><
]
;B[sp]BL[30]OB[9]C[TheBOrg [7k\]: why give handi to the computer? is that fair?
lastmonk [6k\]: wow. w scary
]
;W[rk]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: Pyari, we are in 2009
stg [2d\]: very impressive, the pro did not try to break in the moyo at the early stage
joxn [-\]: 26.1%
]
;B[rn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ql]WL[30]OW[9]C[stg [2d\]: just wait for the bot to make mistakes
lastmonk [6k\]: then again b not that great xD
joxn [-\]: that's how you play handicap games against humans
]
;B[sk]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sl]WL[30]OW[9]C[LapinBlanc [?\]: Floss: the program learns, but it learns only to solve this position, then all the knowledge is lost
noooblet: that win rate went down pretty quick
Pyari [-\]: how do you check O_o
LapinBlanc [?\]: There are several types of offline learning too
TheBOrg [7k\]: common sense is indeed so rare nowadays that people call it IMPressivE!
floss [5k\]: so parameter setting is done by human?
]
;B[sq]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[so]WL[30]OW[9]C[LapinBlanc [?\]: But the program won't learn from this game to play better the next one
]
;B[sn]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sr]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[so]BL[30]OB[9]C[TheBOrg [7k\]: how can be impressive just to do the proper strategy?
]
;W[gf]WL[30]OW[9]C[LapinBlanc [?\]: No, not only by human, there is a lot of automatic learning offline
]
;B[gb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ba]WL[30]OW[9]C[LapinBlanc [?\]: using statistics on thousands of games
ChoMama [-\]: automatic learning?
Narayana [5k\]: using tsumego
]
;B[li]BL[30]OB[9]C[TheBOrg [7k\]: many kgs players dont even count during sklow games
]
;W[jg]WL[30]OW[9]C[floss [5k\]: is there any learning like samuel's checker playing program?
LapinBlanc [?\]: For instance the computer learns alone the good and bad shapes
]
;B[fe]BL[30]OB[9]C[LapinBlanc [?\]: from observing pro games
TheBOrg [7k\]: do you think Pros dont count?
]
;W[lc]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[ps]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[pl]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[qs]BL[30]OB[9]C[Guichocha [1d\]: Today is not the robot rebellion.
]
;W[rm]WL[30]OW[9]
;B[rs]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sm]WL[30]OW[9]C[stg [2d\]: resign time?
goIngo [-\]: But the day will come ...
LapinBlanc [?\]: It's not the same type of learning than samuel's, because Go is much more difficult than checkers. Samuel's type of learning does not work in Go
]
;B[kb]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ib]WL[30]OW[9]C[lastmonk [6k\]: boom
]
;B[fn]BL[30]OB[9]C[TheBOrg [7k\]: I've seen Lee CHang Ho games where he plays a  safe move to secure hiis win by a margin of 5 points when he could have aimed for more
]
;W[gn]WL[30]OW[9]C[TheBOrg [7k\]: you only need 0.5 to win
]
;B[kr]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[ir]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: the bots know ;-)
]
;B[gg]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hg]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: 10.4$
]
;B[gh]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[hi]WL[30]OW[9]C[joxn [-\]: 7.5%
TheBOrg [7k\]: so this bot maybe needed more than 7 handi?
goIngo [-\]: oh, a pro evaluation (in $)  ;-)
]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[9]C[K2na [?\]: no betting here thanks
goIngo [-\]: not only this bot
]
;W[gj]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: pros have learned a lot during the last 8 mionths
TheBOrg [7k\]: I bet you a teaching game
goIngo [-\]: or 7 months
]
;B[hj]BL[30]OB[9]C[joxn [-\]: You have to ask fotland what the criteria for resignation are
]
;W[hh]WL[30]OW[9]C[lastmonk [6k\]: aww thought b would at least get h14  even though that wouldn't save it
]
;B[la]BL[30]OB[9]
;W[sc]WL[30]OW[9]C[goIngo [-\]: 14 handicaps ?
K2na [?\]: congrats
gghideki [3k\]: strong pro
goIngo [-\]: congrats to Chou
TheBOrg [7k\]: nice
fotland [?\]: Very strong pro
goIngo [-\]: thans for the nice game
Khimera [8k\]: nuts for go
fotland [?\]: Good game
joxn [-\]: final evaluation 2.0%
TheBOrg [7k\]: faith in human race is restored
TheBOrg [7k\]: we gonna assimilate more of those
LapinBlanc [?\]: For a short time, I think :)
lastmonk [6k\]: this is insane that be can go from 7 handi to this
lastmonk [6k\]: B*
floss [5k\]: tx
ztw [?\]: one more game?
])
