(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]TM[5400]OT[25/600 Canadian]
PW[Zen19N]PB[tromp]DT[2012-01-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Zen19N [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19N (white): Zen version 8.7
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[5389.191]C[rsun [4d\]: uh oh
PaperTiger [2k\]: 6d, 5d, 3d ... kibitz available in my moderated kibitz clone. See my games list
gghideki [3k?\]: gg
rsun [4d\]: zen thinking hard
blackliist: here we go it should be good
inte [?\]: probably deciding whether to resign ( http://makinglife.csgo.org/index.php?id=1 )
Zen19N [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19N (white): Zen version 8.7
gghideki [3k?\]: Zen was not thinking.
AutoAtari [1k\]: huh? it reconnected?
gghideki [3k?\]: Now ok
alienist [6k\]: escaper/;~)
AutoAtari [1k\]: a go comic?
tromp [-\]: where art thou, zen?
blackliist: lol
dragonx [13k?\]: so much pressure
gghideki [3k?\]: Hmm, connection trouble...
hugeigo [?\]: That move must have blown it's mind.
dragonx [13k?\]: lol
Zen19N [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19N (white): Zen version 8.7
rsun [4d\]: zen 2:1 now?
AutoAtari [1k\]: it is a good tesuji
kazdabot [7k\]: yes
blackliist: tromp is to mighty for zen lol
pasky [-\]: rsun: yes
kazdabot [7k\]: looks like they're heading to 2-2
rsun [4d\]: tromp gotta win this one
hugeigo [?\]: I sure hope so.
kazdabot [7k\]: win on time
rsun [4d\]: q16 is a good choice
blob [4k\]: i cheer for the machine
palapiku [2d?\]: q16 is a stone
kazdabot [7k\]: I too root for the bot
vegmandu [3d\]: boo
rsun [4d\]: zen will either d16 or c4 or q4
blackliist: zen is too afraid to play lol
hugeigo [?\]: I'm for Tromp!
kazdabot [7k\]: too afraid with 1 win over Tromp? lmao
alienist [6k\]: I root for bio machine
rsun [4d\]: zen is deciding which one to play, among the 3 choices
blob [4k\]: zen is pulling a hikaru (secret handi of 15 requires deep thought)
kazdabot [7k\]: zen crashed I'd say
kazdabot [7k\]: disconnected
kazdabot [7k\]: connection problems
Zen19N [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19N (white): Zen version 8.7
blob [4k\]: again?
kazdabot [7k\]: last attempt
kazdabot [7k\]: before they reset the game
blackliist: zen is slacking on the job lol
pasky [-\]: blob: lol
palapiku [2d?\]: this is why humans will always be superior
air4: if zen can chat, its not only a connection problem
dragonx [13k?\]: See bots can be afraid too
kazdabot [7k\]: zen is ahead in the series... no reason to be afraid
blob [4k\]: maybe zen just entered puberty
palapiku [2d?\]: ouch
kazdabot [7k\]: disconnected again
blackliist: zen just knows it will lose in the long run lol
hugeigo [?\]: It might be initiating some sort of plan to take over the world, and is distracting the only salvation, Go players.
inte [?\]: maybe the overclocked hardware went up in smoke.
clydesdale [2k\]: how many games in this match?
LastAngel [?\]: surely zen is waiting for more observers... last game was finished so fast... he likes it get focussed... :)
alienist [6k\]: bot not afraid-just looking at 318 plays
blob [4k\]: settles on A!
blob [4k\]: A1
hugeigo [?\]: I think T1 looks better!
blob [4k\]: A1 makes better form with Q16!
alienist [6k\]: go analog machine!!
inte [?\]: I have a soft spot for the t19 invasion ;)
blob [4k\]: deeeeep behind enemy lines
hugeigo [?\]: I never even saw that!
blob [4k\]: ...enemy point
alienist [6k\]: teach me
air4: at least first time that tromp is ahead in time:)
Zen19N [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19N (white): Zen version 8.7
kazdabot [7k\]: if this doesn't work, let's start a new game...
kazdabot [7k\]: maybe that will work
]
;W[de]WL[4951.335]C[kazdabot [7k\]: wut
inte [?\]: whew.
DivineFTL [5d\]: yay
blob [4k\]: tromp's head looks like he gives headbutts for a living
dragonx [13k?\]: bout time
LastAngel [?\]: missclick?
unorthodox [9k\]: unorthodox joseki
elementc [6d?\]: Commence the inevitable demise of mankind's relevance.
RayTomes [2d\]: zen likes to be high
]
;B[pp]BL[5326.694]C[blob [4k\]: commenced ages ago
inte [?\]: zen out-influencing tromp
rsun [4d\]: zen knows d15 now?
RayTomes [2d\]: zen took 7 minutes for first move????
GotIt [4k?\]: are these guys any strong?
kazdabot [7k\]: zen has been playing weird opening moves in the series
]
;W[dp]WL[4924.615]C[ArrowLance [8k\]: zen knows r9
rsun [4d\]: go d17
palapiku [2d?\]: mankind was never relevant to anything but itself
hugeigo [?\]: Tell that to the dodos.
blob [4k\]: mankind is also relevant to whatever it spawns next
]
;B[dc]BL[5279.48]C[unorthodox [9k\]: 'bout to see some monkey jumps, aren't we?
rsun [4d\]: f16
kazdabot [7k\]: tenuki
]
;W[fd]WL[4887.808]C[rsun [4d\]: bingo
kazdabot [7k\]: intelligent bot...
hugeigo [?\]: Wrong game.
rsun [4d\]: c15
elementc [6d?\]: the bot is 4d kaz
goIngo [-\]: hello hideki, did you delete some of the joseki patterns for this match?
RayTomes [2d\]: bot wants moyo ... will play o4 if it gets a chance
RemiCoulom [4k\]: http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/index.html
]
;B[fc]BL[5241.241]C[WanKing: the power of these two players
RemiCoulom [4k\]: Crazy Analysis of this game
blob [4k\]: bots go high on moyo!
WanKing: is immeasurable
kazdabot [7k\]: thanks Rémi
LastAngel [?\]: hello remi, does cs challenges tromp, too?
kazdabot [7k\]: merci infiniment Rémi
Begining [22k\]: Isn't Tromp a starcraft player?
]
;W[gd]WL[4850.698]C[elementc [6d?\]: he is a computar sciantast
rsun [4d\]: zen knows joseki
kazdabot [7k\]: Could you refresh the page more than once per 2 minutes please?
qQQp [-\]: Thanks Remi it is very nice today
kazdabot [7k\]: because it's hard to keep up with the current moves
kazdabot [7k\]: ah nice... now it's really live
kazdabot [7k\]: wow
rsun [4d\]: b should attach, get sente and play c9
kazdabot [7k\]: amazing thanks
blob [4k\]: (a really strong bot would learn its own joseki)
RemiCoulom [4k\]: Should be much better than yesterday.
RayTomes [2d\]: so Remi, CS thinks diagonal fuseki is best!
]
;B[gc]BL[5149.242]C[rsun [4d\]: should c15
]
;W[hd]WL[4825.031]C[kazdabot [7k\]: C15 according to cs
YalanDan [1d\]: c9
kazdabot [7k\]: and then D16
blob [4k\]: should d10
Getsu [9k\]: ppl think on move 10...
chohip [8k\]: please, how many games for Tromp/Zen ?
trohde [12k\]: Anybody knows whether it’s true that Zen runs on a Mac Pro?
kazdabot [7k\]: 2 to 1 in favor of zen
chohip [8k\]: thx
ArrowLance [8k\]: best of?
kazdabot [7k\]: 5
RayTomes [2d\]: 5?
kazdabot [7k\]: yes
ArrowLance [8k\]: So this match is important
kazdabot [7k\]: if zen wins this game, series is over
]
;B[ce]BL[4994.79]C[rsun [4d\]: b c9 after this
]
;W[qf]WL[4788.623]C[rsun [4d\]: what
UTDEspy [-\]: Haha
RayTomes [2d\]: tenuki tenuki
kazdabot [7k\]: lol
vliu12 [-\]: like a boss
kazdabot [7k\]: well u can't ignore R14
YalanDan [1d\]: d14
odnihs [-\]: yes you can
kazdabot [7k\]: must reply to it
hugeigo [?\]: What does this mean?
rsun [4d\]: d14
RayTomes [2d\]: it means that r14 is as forcing as c15
heather [1d\]: sure you could ignore this
blob [4k\]: means zen can tenuki like a boss
ajahuang [6d\]: you can see the live analysis of this game of Crazy Stone here:  http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/index.html
rsun [4d\]: d14 to destroy moyo possibility
goIngo [-\]: Hello Remi, can you give delta in %, to avoid two of the leading zeros?
odnihs [-\]: lol crazy analysis
xoom [1d\]: I haven't watched any of the prev matches, but can anyone tell me what kind of match is this? and who's Tromp?
joby [9k\]: http://gogameguru.com/man-machine-showdown-board-game-go/
kazdabot [7k\]: cs says D16 now
joby [9k\]: here's the story
unorthodox [9k\]: this match decides the fate of humanity
RayTomes [2d\]: search John Tromp and you will find info on him
kazdabot [7k\]: this match is kasparov vs deep blue
kazdabot [7k\]: for go
odnihs [-\]: no
pasky [-\]: that's not quite it
odnihs [-\]: tromp isn't a pro so it doesn't count
kazdabot [7k\]: :P
rsun [4d\]: so CS thinks b already losing
]
;B[df]BL[4838.212]C[ricedragon [2k\]: what's the record?
odnihs [-\]: 2-1 zen
kazdabot [7k\]: 2 to 1 for the machine
caribbean [3k\]: maybe tromp plays better under money pressure
RayTomes [2d\]: so you can ignore r14
xoom [1d\]: thanks
joby [9k\]: personal bet between tromp and the guy who wrote Zen that he couldn't write a program that could beat him best of 5
kazdabot [7k\]: cs wanted D16 rather than D14
AutoAtari [1k\]: xoom, http://dcook.org/gobet/
ricedragon [2k\]: go humans!
pasky [-\]: that's not quite it either, joby :)
rsun [4d\]: w cannot allow e15
]
;W[dd]WL[4747.978]C[Wobble [3k\]: cs thought black was losing at the start!
callosum [10k\]: go cyborgs!
]
;B[cd]BL[4834.585]C[juicepig [5k\]: lol
Montecchio [1k?\]: um
RayTomes [2d\]: cs disagrees with komi that means
hugeigo [?\]: I'm with you Callosum, we should compromise.
caribbean [3k\]: that corner looks good for b
blob [4k\]: with komi b is indeed losing at the start
Montecchio [1k?\]: D16 looked pointless
rsun [4d\]: not blocking is bad for w
]
;W[kd]WL[4712.849]C[juicepig [5k\]: w loves center
rsun [4d\]: b gets o17 too
kazdabot [7k\]: time to fortify Q16 I guess
rsun [4d\]: w has 0 point
rsun [4d\]: aka pointless
Montecchio [1k?\]: w has 7.5 points
xoom [1d\]: I see so what's the strength of tromp and Zen19N?
Wobble [3k\]: about 4d?
kazdabot [7k\]: yes
blob [4k\]: w's shape is pretty hard to like
odnihs [-\]: wait is crazyanalysis supposed to update per move?
maher139 [4k\]: i think w will lose,
blixa [2k\]: you try playing while stuffed in a shoebox
RayTomes [2d\]: CS not keeping up
kazdabot [7k\]: every 2 mins or so odnihs
odnihs [-\]: ah ok
xoom [1d\]: I see, thanks
callosum [10k\]: what is crazyanalysis?
rsun [4d\]: actually, since this is zen, b can play n17 to provoke the 33
odnihs [-\]: http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/index.html
kazdabot [7k\]: C17.... cs liked  C17 instead of L16
callosum [10k\]: thanks odnihs, that is in fact.. pretty crazy
kazdabot [7k\]: cs still suggest C17 for b
RayTomes [2d\]: CS liked D14
]
;B[pf]BL[4684.695]C[rsun [4d\]: c17 and c14 should be played later
RayTomes [2d\]: stay high! good tactic against zen
]
;W[pg]WL[4682.205]C[ThiGar [4k\]: Just arriving. Is Zen19N the same bot as CrazyStone?
kazdabot [7k\]: no
kazdabot [7k\]: his ennemy bot :) rival bot
kazdabot [7k\]: it's rated 5d in blitz
RayTomes [2d\]: so CS is "commening" on zen moves
kazdabot [7k\]: yes lol
RayTomes [2d\]: commenting*
mongol [?\]: what is CSs rating?
hugeigo [?\]: What's Mr. Tromp's rating?
callosum [10k\]: some hot bot on bot action would be outstanding
rsun [4d\]: 5d blitz
]
;B[of]BL[4630.213]C[blob [4k\]: these bots need a shit talking feature
hugeigo [?\]: Thanks.
]
;W[qe]WL[4658.884]C[blob [4k\]: anytime
]
;B[qd]BL[4627.427]C[juicepig [5k\]: that woudl be too hot to bot
odnihs [-\]: hugei tromp is 2-3d egf
RayTomes [2d\]: we need kibotx you mean?
rsun [4d\]: zen wins on time now
RayTomes [2d\]: kibotz
hugeigo [?\]: I was thanking rsun, but I do agree.
callosum [10k\]: blob -- they are building in a kbitz feature, so almost the same idea
unorthodox [9k\]: have a rare ing clock feature ("that's not even sente!")
]
;W[qh]WL[4622.794]C[blob [4k\]: yes, moar kibotz
rsun [4d\]: o17
caribbean [3k\]: n17
palapiku [2d?\]: blob, didn't you already get banned once for swearing
mongol [?\]: o16 no?
ThiGar [4k\]: But how does CS fetch the moves (for "commenting") off the screen if it has nothing to do with Zen?
alienist [6k\]: o16?
blob [4k\]: do i look i fucking care about getting banned, palapikachu?
AutoAtari [1k\]: or o17
alienist [6k\]: too slow?
uurtamo [-\]: r7?
RayTomes [2d\]: CS likes q14
caribbean [3k\]: you bough cs?
]
;B[nc]BL[4524.978]C[AutoAtari [1k\]: actually it doesn't, it recommended n16 instead
unorthodox [9k\]: why not n17?
AcePace: Slow, no?
etoi [2k?\]: Tromp 2D Euro
rsun [4d\]: I played CS 15 years ago
funkyj: Go HUMANS!
]
;W[pm]WL[4581.514]C[Naphthalin [9k\]: well, i do it from time to time with girls
RayTomes [2d\]: well prob of win went up a lot for Q14
funkyj: don't let Skynet win!
ThiGar [4k\]: CS is more than 15 years old?
rsun [4d\]: q7 interesting
rsun [4d\]: CS was known as counter strike back then
]
;B[np]BL[4492.882]C[callosum [10k\]: tromp looks exactly like my HS physics teacher -- no kidding
atarinogo [10k\]: What's the format of this match?
unorthodox [9k\]: he does have a "mad scientist" look to him
RayTomes [2d\]: 5 even games
RayTomes [2d\]: or until one wins 3
]
;W[mm]WL[4545.625]C[caribbean [3k\]: zen might finish it up today
atarinogo [10k\]: What is the "bet"?
joby [9k\]: Why chinese ruleset?
blindgod [27k?\]: it was $1000
caribbean [3k\]: easier for bots
unorthodox [9k\]: holy cow
rsun [4d\]: L4
funakoshi [1k\]: no money involved this time
RayTomes [2d\]: all bots use chinese rules it seems
ThiGar [4k\]: counter strike a go program? didn't know
rsun [4d\]: let the bot jump on line 7
blindgod [27k?\]: but according to what I read, the real bet ended in 2011
RayTomes [2d\]: probably because japanese rules are incomplete
rsun [4d\]: counter strike is not go at all
timothy [24k?\]: does it actually make a difference if you play chinese or japanese?
funkyj: until the endgame, rule set doesn't really matter.
unorthodox [9k\]: yes
rsun [4d\]: chinese dame > ko
caribbean [3k\]: p13
AutoAtari [1k\]: chinese rules are much easier for computers
funkyj: at the end, it can be either: same result, 1-pt different result or japanes can have "no-result"
cyryts [2k\]: i like b here
palapiku [2d?\]: tromp is a big fan of area scoring
caribbean [3k\]: b doesnt know what to do now
cjalden [2k\]: it matters when you end the game but not the overall strategy
rsun [4d\]: L4 is the right move
epsilon3 [1d?\]: I would say b is already leading due to the non joseki in the upper left
rsun [4d\]: let w have the right side
Collision [16k\]: I'm new here, can anyone tell me the match score?
rsun [4d\]: nothing to worry about
caribbean [3k\]: b is more solid
afar [3d\]: Collision: The score is 2:1 in zen's favour
funkyj: match score: 2-1 for zen
pinkey [7k\]: wha'ts white going for, a center moyo?
afar [3d\]: It is best of 5
Montecchio [1k?\]: the corner is almost as big as the entire side on the right
Collision [16k\]: Ahh, kay
Collision [16k\]: Ty
blixa [2k\]: zen is just so moyo centric. there should be a way to exploit the fetish
ThiGar [4k\]: if komi is an uneven number, the result is always the same japonese or chinese
frankohara [6k\]: w is going for a win
RayTomes [2d\]: so is b
YalanDan [1d\]: o12
unorthodox [9k\]: no, they both want to loose
cjalden [2k\]: expect both players are going for a win
rsun [4d\]: o12 is getting too worries
rsun [4d\]: worried*
cyryts [2k\]: crazy stone would play c17 as black!
rsun [4d\]: just get the side
cjr [-\]: ThiGar, most of the time the  result is the same, but not always
Montecchio [1k?\]: under chinise rules, if black's last move is connecting a minimal ko, it's like black gets an extra point
Collision [16k\]: This robot is like 4d right?
blixa [2k\]: what about r7?
RayTomes [2d\]: c17!???
Montecchio [1k?\]: since black played an extra move
funakoshi [1k\]: o13
RayTomes [2d\]: crazy stone is crazy
funakoshi [1k\]: or n14
epsilon3 [1d?\]: In japanese rules points in seki are not counted
Montecchio [1k?\]: right, so you can have false eyes all around the board and not get any points
RayTomes [2d\]: I like r7
cjr [-\]: L4 seems natural
unorthodox [9k\]: f3, j4
]
;B[fq]BL[4225.132]C[hugeigo [?\]: I like J4 too.
timothy [24k?\]: which one is the bot?
rsun [4d\]: pincer
blixa [2k\]: r7 is either a reduction and territory, or an invasion
funakoshi [1k\]: zen must be pincer
RayTomes [2d\]: bots always pincer
TomSwirly [7k\]: zen is the bot
AutoAtari [1k\]: CS would play c17 as w not b
Montecchio [1k?\]: i don't like pincer here
]
;W[ip]WL[4512.646]C[timothy [24k?\]: yes, but white or black? ;)
ThiGar [4k\]: would'nt  L4 have left too much room underneath?
Montecchio [1k?\]: white is the bot
cjr [-\]: j4 is good Zen style though, splitting up the board
TomSwirly [7k\]: oh, Zen the bot is white.
timothy [24k?\]: sry to interrupt your discussion^^
TomSwirly [7k\]: they can't hear us. :-D
rsun [4d\]: l3
Montecchio [1k?\]: they can after the game
TomSwirly [7k\]: too late to distract 'em.
unorthodox [9k\]: darn
ThiGar [4k\]: J4 handicap game move
RayTomes [2d\]: oh c17 as W is OK, but a bit weird as b
Montecchio [1k?\]: unless one of them opens a second account, and spectates
rsun [4d\]: j4 is good
funakoshi [1k\]: i think at least in one game, tromp should play mirror go. i was hoping it was this game
cjr [-\]: tromp is 1-2 now though
rsun [4d\]: as b you'd have to play tengen
RayTomes [2d\]: mirror go as B???
cjr [-\]: and playing mirror go as white is easier
oak [4k\]: f5, central reduction?
Montecchio [1k?\]: you'd mirror a move like D16?
]
;B[fn]BL[4097.264]C[funakoshi [1k\]: hehe
vegmandu [3d\]: woah!
Montecchio [1k?\]: jumping like a boss
rsun [4d\]: b is thin 3/4 of the board
cjr [-\]: hmm, f6, just to get white out of the book?
RayTomes [2d\]: what is all this boss talk?
ThiGar [4k\]: F6 recommended by Lee Chang Ho
cjr [-\]: not a bad move, but a weird move
Muttley [3k\]: there's no point to get white out of the book
unorthodox [9k\]: bowser
]
;W[dm]WL[4472.668]C[RayTomes [2d\]: white doesn't have a book does it?
TomSwirly [7k\]: isn't it a standard joseki?
kazdabot [7k\]: crazystone is totally obcessed with C17
Muttley [3k\]: algorithmic :)
vegmandu [3d\]: really thigar?
cjr [-\]: i'm pretty sure it has a book
AutoAtari [1k\]: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/like-a-boss
TomSwirly [7k\]: black's jump, I mean.
RayTomes [2d\]: if one line to left is joseki
kazdabot [7k\]: cs recommended C17 several times in a row
rsun [4d\]: cs thinks b has no hope
kazdabot [7k\]: for zen
blindgod [27k?\]: for black or white?
blindgod [27k?\]: oh
rsun [4d\]: losing since move 1
kazdabot [7k\]: nah
Muttley [3k\]: I looked at one of the earlier games, tromp played really horrible, especially for playing against a bot
kazdabot [7k\]: cs thinks it's a close game
Muttley [3k\]: what is cs?
bonobo03 [3k\]: now  L11  - last chance ....
kazdabot [7k\]: crazystone
funkyj: does Zen ever go for territory?
TomSwirly [7k\]: crazystone
kazdabot [7k\]: a 5d bot
cjr [-\]: which version of cs are you using? commercial one?
Muttley [3k\]: ok thanks
croc [5d\]: w is not realistic 
GoRoGoRo [7k?\]: Wonderful game!
kazdabot [7k\]: the one of Rémi Coulom
Muttley [3k\]: I need to get crazy, seems a pretty good bot
croc [5d\]: both mistaken this for komoko joseki by 1 line hehe
ThiGar [4k\]: is cs released as freeware?
Muttley [3k\]: heh, you think so?
AutoAtari [1k\]: not both, only b :)
]
;B[dq]BL[3984.816]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: um...
juicepig [5k\]: c17 is pretty savage
darrencook [?\]: Re: zen and book: no book, no joseki, but it does have a number of patterns that cover common corner positions
Muttley [3k\]: N12 looks like a cs move for white eventually
]
;W[cq]WL[4437.587]C[funkyj: What is tromp's estimated KGS rating (since he has ratings turned off)?
funakoshi [1k\]: 4d
Muttley [3k\]: he's apparently dutch 2d
funakoshi [1k\]: egf 2d
cjr [-\]: darren, what's your source for that? and  how does common patterns differ from joseki?
oak [4k\]: Won't F6 get cut off under this continuation?
Muttley [3k\]: same difference :)
]
;B[ep]BL[3930.996]
;W[dr]WL[4411.703]C[Muttley [3k\]: cutting F6 is not really that important imho, since white can easily extend up
oak [4k\]: Oh. Looks like not.
funkyj: E2?
RayTomes [2d\]: tromp is out-zenning zen ... taking central influence
ThiGar [4k\]: I thought a "common corner pattern" was the definition of joseki
RayTomes [2d\]: yes
funakoshi [1k\]: d5, let zen take corner
Muttley [3k\]: tromp is black ...
]
;B[do]BL[3905.029]C[darrencook [?\]: @cjr: Zen author (asked on compgo mailing list the other day)
cjr [-\]: ah, interesting, have to start reading that mailing list :)
darrencook [?\]: Patterns means it uses the patterns to guide the MCTS playouts.
]
;W[eq]WL[4379.3]C[Muttley [3k\]: what does the TS stand for?
]
;B[cp]BL[3899.709]C[cjr [-\]: tree search
Muttley [3k\]: thanks
ThiGar [4k\]: and the MC?
darrencook [?\]: As opposed to reading moves from a book until opponents plays a different move and then starting your thinking process
juicepig [5k\]: monte carlo
Muttley [3k\]: Monte Carlo
darrencook [?\]: MCTS = Monte Carlo Tree Search
Muttley [3k\]: it's a statistical technique
]
;W[dq]WL[4350.318]
;B[eo]BL[3896.268]C[Muttley [3k\]: I hate it :)
Muttley [3k\]: but I'm prejudiced :)
funakoshi [1k\]: hehe, i think zen dont like this =)
funkyj: B is good here, right?
epsilon3 [1d?\]: yeah...you roll the dice and takes your chances
RayTomes [2d\]: monte carlo has proven itself very effective for complex problems
]
;W[fl]WL[4307.416]C[cjr [-\]: it has, and impressive results for go of course
cjr [-\]: but  MC is also hard to "tame"
Muttley [3k\]: I don't think b is good, the O4 stones are lonely
ThiGar [4k\]: very fascinating: for every tried next move, the MC method  plays a random virtual game till the last move
Muttley [3k\]: it didn't work in my line of work
Montecchio [1k?\]: kinda like backgammon rollouts
funakoshi [1k\]: lonely but not so weak
mongol [?\]: but the j4 stone is lonely too
Montecchio [1k?\]: i think blacks should pincer it
cyryts [2k\]: i would play e8
Muttley [3k\]: hence, I prefer rule-based analysis
alienist [6k\]: but again-zen set for middle moyo
pasky [-\]: muttley, what did you try it on?
cjr [-\]: human has a bigger challenge than Zen here, I don't like that  shape
cyryts [2k\]: on second thought i wouldn't
Muttley [3k\]: I didn't, I reviwed the work on analysing brainwave data
unorthodox [9k\]: smartgo says w+47.5
Muttley [3k\]: total and utter garbage
Montecchio [1k?\]: that's... smart
Muttley [3k\]: but that was probably the "scientist" who did it
unorthodox [9k\]: it will be more accurate middle game
RayTomes [2d\]: SE says E5 is dead, d'oh
Muttley [3k\]: hence my comment, I'm prejudiced :)
AutoAtari [1k\]: go zen!
funkyj: go tromp
]
;B[in]BL[3738.762]C[funkyj: !
oak [4k\]: My SmartGo says B+14.5
TomSwirly [7k\]: the trouble (can be) convergence.
Muttley [3k\]: I've not looked at it in a go context, pasky, I know people rate i
TomSwirly [7k\]: (in MC)
Muttley [3k\]: rate it
kazdabot [7k\]: cs favors w
mongol [?\]: w doesn't have 47 points let alone leading by that
ThiGar [4k\]: Monte Carlo method: also, cognitive science researchers star to realize that there is also a fair bit of "randomness" in the way the human brain works
TomSwirly [7k\]: I was peripherally involved with something that got OK results...
Muttley [3k\]: this is more like a game for black now
TomSwirly [7k\]: but then to get better results we ran out of computing power.
]
;W[lp]WL[4261.575]C[Muttley [3k\]: it was never about the D7 stone :)
TomSwirly [7k\]: and this was at the time a huge Vax cluster.
Montecchio [1k?\]: is black going to cut?
LastAngel [?\]: m4 interesting move
funkyj: VAX, LOL.
Muttley [3k\]: pasky, do you have a bot?
TomSwirly [7k\]: yes, it was a long time ago.
funakoshi [1k\]: pasky's bot is pachi
LastAngel [?\]: pasky has several bots
Muttley [3k\]: don't diss the technology, it's all about how you use it
Muttley [3k\]: oh, right, cheers pasky :) pachi is good :)
funkyj: I've been away from Go for a long time.  I used to be able to beat all KGS bots as a 3k.
oak [4k\]: This M4 is hard to answer. I want to strengthen the O4-Q4 corner group, but I can't see a good move to do it.
Montecchio [1k?\]: I don't think the corner needs strengthening
RayTomes [2d\]: what about r7?
AutoAtari [1k\]: l3
LastAngel [?\]: funky, there are already 5d-bots
Muttley [3k\]: that's one of the concepts I think you need to develop as a player (by "you" I mean ... anyone)
hugeigo [?\]: Why isn't there an I?
Muttley [3k\]: the idea of "purchase"
hugeigo [?\]: It skips straight to J.
ALVEDEGUZ [5k\]: was this the 4th game?
TomSwirly [7k\]: because it would get confused
AutoAtari [1k\]: because it looks like l
TomSwirly [7k\]: with L and 1
RayTomes [2d\]: I and l difficult to tell apart.
hugeigo [?\]: Oh okay... I don't like that, but I can manage.
ThiGar [4k\]: I, J, L and 1 all look the same
unorthodox [9k\]: this is the fourth game, alv
Muttley [3k\]: R5 is reasonable, has yose follow up
Montecchio [1k?\]: the corner still isn't black's...
Muttley [3k\]: I did say they were lonely earlier ...
funkyj: something in the middle first, then the Q4 corner?
mongol [?\]: r4 over r5 then
Muttley [3k\]: M6 is the consistent move
Alife361 [?\]: if b plays in corner, zern'll take j8
epsilon3 [1d?\]: D9
Alife361 [?\]: Zen*
Montecchio [1k?\]: white has two weak groups, black wants to keep it that way
etoi [2k?\]: Wht at R3 would be very unsettling
vagabundo [3d\]: and tromp level is?
Muttley [3k\]: 2d egf
oak [4k\]: That R7 is looking a good idea as time passes.
vagabundo [3d\]: thanks muttley
alienist [6k\]: tromp has big move on left?
Muttley [3k\]: someone else corrected me earlier, vagubondo :)
Ph1xi3 [-\]: I used to take on bravely 2d egf, then I took an arrow in the knee
RayTomes [2d\]: d9 is tempting
LastAngel [?\]: does zen prefer b or w now?
pasky [-\]: muttley, i see... i assume mcmc could work for some brainwave analysis but perhaps there are a lot more efficient techniques, actually it's a topic i'm planning to dive into some time in the future :)
vagabundo [3d\]: ey, I typed your nick correctly, hehe
Muttley [3k\]: pasky, if you do, let me know, I solved it 15 years ago
Xiangqi [4k\]: someone wake B up so he can move already
cjr [-\]: not gonna get your go bot to pro level first pasky? :)
vagabundo [3d\]: then, why is this on top?
vagabundo [3d\]: strange
pasky [-\]: "solved"? :)
Muttley [3k\]: yeah, solved :)
pasky [-\]: cjr: of course i am, i said "in the future" ;)
Muttley [3k\]: as in, accurate identification technique
juicepig [5k\]: wavelets?
AutoAtari [1k\]: it's on top because it's a special event
blixa [2k\]: piglets
unorthodox [9k\]: so, is b going to do anything?
enjolras [16k\]: whats Tromp's Rank?
oonicks [?\]: e8
bonobo03 [3k\]: with 30  b missed L 11  
Tetriste [1d\]: tromp is 3d egf
Muttley [3k\]: yes, able to handle false positves and negatives
gryn [1k\]: i usually have her on top during special events too
domanic [1k\]: 4D EGF
RayTomes [2d\]: e8 is not a good cut because ladder favours w
Muttley [3k\]: juicepig: yes, wavelet analysis
Tetriste [1d\]: 4d? I heard 3d during first game :/
Muttley [3k\]: 5-6 microvolts
juicepig [5k\]: hehe lucky guess. neural nets was my 2nd
gryn [1k\]: wavelets are waves that diminsh over a short distance, usually.
GoRoGoRo [7k?\]: If Tromp were Zen he would tenuki now and play D10
AutoAtari [1k\]: 4d once, 4d twice, who gives more?
gryn [1k\]: you can use them for compression
GriGriGo [2k\]: 2d EGF, not 3 or 4
Bekuam [8k\]: I thought wavelets were a tool for solving PDES?
juicepig [5k\]: could be
ThiGar [4k\]: bit confused: brain waves or brain wavelets?
Tetriste [1d\]: I studied wavelets a bit :D
pasky [-\]: muttley: ah.. i was not even thinking about that which shows how little i know about this stuff :) i meant actually using the measured data for some non-trivial predictions/analysis
Mysigh [9k\]: l4 ?
blackliist: tromp is taking a lot of time
chohip [8k\]: is it perudo game ? :-)
unorthodox [9k\]: m5?
LastAngel [?\]: i heard tromp already 5d egf :p
mongol [?\]: r4
Xiangqi [4k\]: since ive been here hes jumped from 2d to 3d
Muttley [3k\]: oh, ok, I wrote an expert system that could find and track wavelets to threshold
nay4ok [1k?\]: so.. did tromp win any of the games so far?
Xiangqi [4k\]: so yeah i imagine he'll be 5d soon
Tetriste [1d\]: no way, 5d egf wouldnt lose to zen19n I think
afar [3d\]: tromp won one so far
afar [3d\]: Of 3
Muttley [3k\]: also, a test system for clinicians ... published it in 2004 if you want a reference
robertpcx [2k\]: zen19n is sleeping
darrencook [?\]: Wow, at this rate John will be pro level before he plays his next move...
gryn [1k\]: but now he has to win the remaining two (this and the next), that's not good odds.
unorthodox [9k\]: powernap for the computer... is that really a good thing?
Montecchio [1k?\]: pros think for much longer than this
juicepig [5k\]: sure ref please
Montecchio [1k?\]: but then, their games take two days
darrencook [?\]: (John is strong european 2-dan, estimated about 4 dan on KGS)
AutoAtari [1k\]: 5d, we got 5d! 6d anybody?
Muttley [3k\]: the whole point is, "measured" data depends on the skill of hte measurer, and that's what the 2004 paper was about
unorthodox [9k\]: shodan!
BobWhoosta [1k\]: I bid 7d.
kazdabot [7k\]: cs wants M3
Muttley [3k\]: hence, objective techniques (and their applicability to go!)
mongol [?\]: dans are sleeping
nay4ok [1k?\]: how 2egf dan can possibly hope to win 5d bot?
Montecchio [1k?\]: bot is only 5d in blitz
Xiangqi [4k\]: oh THAT tromp. yeah He just got promoted to6d last week. I was there. it was pretty cool.
afar [3d\]: 1) 2d EGF is not the same as 2d KGS. 2) The bot is not 5d.
Tetriste [1d\]: oh yea, actually it was 2d egf that people said he was
GriGriGo [2k\]: egf ranking much stromger than kgs
pasky [-\]: muttley: does that mean quality of the program or skill of clinician of attaching electrodes or something else? :)
]
;B[hk]BL[3050.303]C[RayTomes [2d\]: bot strength depends on number of CPUs also
kazdabot [7k\]: 55.4% chance w wins accodring to cs
gryn [1k\]: what is cs.
Muttley [3k\]: pasky, skill of clinician in identifying waveforms
Montecchio [1k?\]: this one is dual six-core
Alife361 [?\]: wow! agains w j8'th
vegmandu [3d\]: wow I really wasn't expecting h9
Muttley [3k\]: I worked on national standards in both areas- clinical standards and objective techniques
Tetriste [1d\]: I think 2d egf is about 4d kgs?
Xiangqi [4k\]: I taught him that move
darrencook [?\]: BTW, the pros are analyzing over on the papertiger clone of this game.
afar [3d\]: I don't think 2d EGF maps well to KGS
unorthodox [9k\]: it would be ear reddening, if w had ears
GriGriGo [2k\]: wow, looks like a zen move
]
;W[hl]WL[4211.163]C[pasky [-\]: nay4ok: humans are stronger against Zen in slow games, hence 4d is more realistic; and egf 2d should be at least 3d kgs
]
;B[il]BL[3044.029]C[Alife361 [?\]: b started playing w's moves
pinkey [7k\]: would anyone do this against a human or is this a quirk of the machine he's hoping to exploit?
RayTomes [2d\]: good point is that it reduces centre of zen - bad point is something gets cut?
Tetriste [1d\]: yeah something like strong 3d-weak 4d
Muttley [3k\]: https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/uk-ac-man-scw:1d8634
nay4ok [1k?\]: if bot is 5d in blitz... shouldn't it bestronger with nore time to "think"?
maenad [3k\]: where's the papertiger clone?
Muttley [3k\]: it's the same problem as in go, identifying something that has quality to it :)
]
;W[hm]WL[4171.369]C[vegmandu [3d\]: no
nay4ok [1k?\]: why not?
kazdabot [7k\]: in computer room game
]
;B[im]BL[3034.871]C[vegmandu [3d\]: cause human so weake with no time to think
Bilapidate [1d?\]: The tree gets too large
unorthodox [9k\]: bots dont need to think
Uberdude [2d?\]: i know 3d egf who are 2d KGS =)
pasky [-\]: nay4ok: of course zen gets slightly stronger with extra time, but human opponents get much more stronger as they do not make obvious blunders without time pressure
Muttley [3k\]: black is creating orphans ...
Montecchio [1k?\]: can white afford to cut black?
TheRainMan [2d?\]: isnt h6 working now?
]
;W[gk]WL[4120.641]C[TheRainMan [2d?\]: hm
Montecchio [1k?\]: zen doesn't think white can afford to cut
Muttley [3k\]: excellent, shape first
kazdabot [7k\]: we're heading to w's win
afar [3d\]: That's not excellent
unorthodox [9k\]: b4, c7 for b if and when he needs shape
whuang [1d\]: Anybody senior admin here?
afar [3d\]: Should be 'cut first'
funakoshi [1k\]: no admin here
vagabundo [3d\]: r3 good for white in this possition?
Muttley [3k\]: dave parker retired :)
kazdabot [7k\]: I think so, vagabundo
Montecchio [1k?\]: r3 hurts white's two space high extension
pasky [-\]: muttley: funny... but why are clinicians doing these estimates and not computers?
Montecchio [1k?\]: or dies
kazdabot [7k\]: even C17 now
Xiangqi [4k\]: thats whty he asked
Xiangqi [4k\]: to see what the 7ks think
Muttley [3k\]: pasky: because at that time there were no good methods for reliability analysing the waveforms
kazdabot [7k\]: cs says H6 here though
nay4ok [1k?\]: ok.. 5d bot gets a little stronger with extra time. but how much stronger 2egf can get?
vagabundo [3d\]: I think r3 good only if white can do something about those 4 stones
Muttley [3k\]: that was the problem I solved
RayTomes [2d\]: h6 is honte I suppose
pasky [-\]: muttley: aha, interesting!
Muttley [3k\]: and hence my interest in applicability to go, because it is an assessment problem
kazdabot [7k\]: i dont understand cs thoughts... cs suggset moves already played...
etoi [2k?\]: Strike at the head of two stones
RayTomes [2d\]: cs is running behind a bit
nay4ok [1k?\]: cs? anyone?
vegmandu [3d\]: h6?
kazdabot [7k\]: nah, it's updated
Muttley [3k\]: crazystone :)
kazdabot [7k\]: cs says H6
sanpei [6k\]: J9
WackyFuse [6k\]: cs = crazystone
ricedragon [2k\]: http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/CrazyAnalysis-27.html
RayTomes [2d\]: was then
Persians [1k\]: h6 good
kazdabot [7k\]: but the 4th move suggestd is G9
kazdabot [7k\]: the analysis doesn't make any sense
kazdabot [7k\]: of cs
Muttley [3k\]: thanks dragon
funkyj: H6 helps B cut at E8 later
ricedragon [2k\]: np
]
;B[mn]BL[2838.986]C[kazdabot [7k\]: how can b play G9 here...
unorthodox [9k\]: b soesn't have to worry about the cut, does he?
Xiangqi [4k\]: escape is not his plan
mongol [?\]: rock and roll
]
;W[hn]WL[4091.336]C[Persians [1k\]: h6 cut
AutoAtari [1k\]: where do you see g9?
vagabundo [3d\]: huge
RayTomes [2d\]: if B cut, w has many useful forcing moves
Uberdude [2d?\]: black says he can cut this shape too
funakoshi [1k\]: reading contest against a bot is not too good i think^^
]
;B[ho]BL[2823.178]C[unorthodox [9k\]: b+2.5 says smartgo
vagabundo [3d\]: n6 was very bad!
Muttley [3k\]: one of the problems with chess bots was you couldn't psych them out or intimidate them
Bilapidate [1d?\]: N6 premature
Muttley [3k\]: the same is true of go bots undoubtedly
]
;W[io]WL[4066.508]C[kazdabot [7k\]: 55.4% win for w for cs
Uberdude [2d?\]: gan siyang can psych out Zen
Muttley [3k\]: roll on the orphans ...
juicepig [5k\]: interesting article, Muttley. thanks 
RayTomes [2d\]: h4?
Muttley [3k\]: you're welcome :)
Muttley [3k\]: I wrote it :)
Xiangqi [4k\]: gan siynag is amazing
wuwei [4k\]: this b attack seems fragile
funakoshi [1k\]: b in trouble?
Muttley [3k\]: white should have no problem handling this fight because of the bad aji around the various black groups
Bilapidate [1d?\]: B thin too many places
TheRainMan [2d?\]: i think b is not in trouble but in great danger of dieing
Muttley [3k\]: I would L6 here
kazdabot [7k\]: ahhhh no, now i understand cs....
RayTomes [2d\]: n6  at h6 seems to have been a better plan
Uberdude [2d?\]: yeah fighting spirit says l6
Muttley [3k\]: but that's my view, you have to connect things up
Uberdude [2d?\]: but seems w was not bluffing and this move is bigger
blixa [2k\]: but it will be an unhappy life regardless
vegmandu [3d\]: wow
Muttley [3k\]: juicepig, pasky, the problem with research in the area was the use of stats, which are insensitive to error
Tetriste [1d\]: this seem like an unhappy ending
unorthodox [9k\]: b4
vegmandu [3d\]:  was a mess.
vegmandu [3d\]: that was is a what.
]
;B[hp]BL[2693.838]C[blackliist: whos in the lead right now?
nay4ok [1k?\]: b is a mess
Xiangqi [4k\]: so you guys are saying egf 3d players are really bad and overlook very obvious continuations just to play random moves
RayTomes [2d\]: w a little
Xiangqi [4k\]: interesting
funkyj: spectators lead
]
;W[iq]WL[4051.019]C[nay4ok [1k?\]: trying to die now
Muttley [3k\]: ie 95% signifiance (or whatever level you work at) does not cut it with the types of error that upset clinical test
unorthodox [9k\]: smartgo says w in the lead
kazdabot [7k\]: the 2 last moves were suggested by cs
Tetriste [1d\]: b will have small life and chances are that w will get m6
vagabundo [3d\]: if black can live there, its game over, and even if makes life...
blackliist: ok thanks people :)
Muttley [3k\]: well, black can die in many places now
kazdabot [7k\]: 56% wins for w
vagabundo [3d\]: white can take j7 group
sanpei [6k\]: H3
sekhem [3k\]: are we lookin 2 robots playin ? I'm sorry if it is a silly question...
oak [4k\]: M6 to connect up for black I think.
]
;B[fr]BL[2643.56]C[kazdabot [7k\]: yesterday human resigned at 57% win for b
TomSwirly [7k\]: yes, but one robot is made of flesh.
Muttley [3k\]: hum, M6
RayTomes [2d\]: if B had played h6, would have had one strong group instead of 2 or 3) weak ones
funkyj: @sekhem: human vs bot
]
;W[bp]WL[4019.537]C[funkyj: John Connor vs Skynet.
vegmandu [3d\]: thats what I think ray.
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Threw the gauntlet at white. Corner must stay alive too. Can sente be kept?
vegmandu [3d\]: b5 c5 c6?
Muttley [3k\]: that's the problem, Ray
Tetriste [1d\]: w's done?
Muttley [3k\]: people expect too much
sekhem [3k\]: ty funkyi ! go computers get stronger
unorthodox [9k\]: w doesn't have sente
unorthodox [9k\]: b2 vital
Muttley [3k\]: your opponent gets a few moves too :)
AutoAtari [1k\]: I don't see any problem for w
AutoAtari [1k\]: b, however, is in a bit of trouble
vegmandu [3d\]: b5?
unorthodox [9k\]: ugly ko
]
;B[bo]BL[2544.144]C[Muttley [3k\]: lol
Tetriste [1d\]: wow
funkyj: B5 is clearly bad, because I like it :)
Tetriste [1d\]: nice call
RayTomes [2d\]: seemed likely
ricedragon [2k\]: this might be a dumb question but is cs stronger than zen?
Montecchio [1k?\]: L3 is like... infinite threats
RayTomes [2d\]: no
Montecchio [1k?\]: i don't think white can fight this ko
RayTomes [2d\]: a little weaker
]
;W[ln]WL[3987.331]C[blixa [2k\]: an odd tenuki?
Tetriste [1d\]: c5 first?
vagabundo [3d\]: no
Muttley [3k\]: not at all
Muttley [3k\]: white is alove
ricedragon [2k\]: ok thanks
Muttley [3k\]: alive
funakoshi [1k\]: must m7?
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Is C5 sente to kill?
sanpei [6k\]: M7
funakoshi [1k\]: if not, whats the point of n6?
Muttley [3k\]: cutting black
ricedragon [2k\]: just connect?
funkyj: I don't see how C5 does not kill W.
]
;B[lm]BL[2468.929]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: if W b2?
AutoAtari [1k\]: c5 b2?
Montecchio [1k?\]: ko at least
Montecchio [1k?\]: is black making threatsÉ
TomSwirly [7k\]: this is much wilder than the last game!
AutoAtari [1k\]: cs likes w more and more
funakoshi [1k\]: ah yes, zen now having its ko glitches
funakoshi [1k\]: ^^
]
;W[ll]WL[3931.808]C[Muttley [3k\]: does anyone know how deep the search level is for zen?
ThiGar [4k\]: man, a hot ko + a cross-cut!
]
;B[km]BL[2458.096]C[Persians [1k\]: c5, b3, b2,a2 safe
Muttley [3k\]: I appreciate it's not a straightforward question :)
Persians [1k\]: but m7 bad
]
;W[mo]WL[3902.555]C[AutoAtari [1k\]: c5 b3 a4 w dead
timothy [24k?\]: is that ko really worth a lot of points?
Bilapidate [1d?\]: W getting thin now
oonicks [?\]: i suspect zen rather plays 5 games with many observers
Persians [1k\]: f3 group look die
]
;B[nn]BL[2444.202]C[Bekuam [8k\]: Who is on the other end of Tromp's bet?
Montecchio [1k?\]: tromp already won a bet
Montecchio [1k?\]: this is a rematch
zagzigman [1k\]: b is collapsing
funakoshi [1k\]: no bet this time
]
;W[no]WL[3866.832]C[funakoshi [1k\]: just bet's on human dignity^^
Muttley [3k\]: well, there''s the lonely two stone shimari :)
Xiangqi [4k\]: Im sure b saw all this when he crosscut gime him some credit
AutoAtari [1k\]: it is a bet, just no money involved
darrencook [?\]: Anti-computer strategy: lots of weak groups all over the board...
alienist [6k\]: fighting better for analog brain
Muttley [3k\]: darren, no, that's just bad go :)
oak [4k\]: This is looking a good sequence for white. Zen is getting the upper hand I think.
Persians [1k\]: b so bad
Snap: what's tromps rank? 
reprisal [4d?\]: does zen ever let its own groups become weak
ThiGar [4k\]: @Muttley: I believe that with MC, the search is only one move, but with complete games played out randomly for each tried move.
]
;B[oo]BL[2366.793]C[reprisal [4d?\]: it always seems to be on the attack, all the time
vagabundo [3d\]: yes, sometimes reprisal
Muttley [3k\]: thanks Gar :)
Xiangqi [4k\]: w is going to have a cut-off group on lower and abunch of thin stones to the left
vagabundo [3d\]: but not common
Xiangqi [4k\]: soo...
Muttley [3k\]: I've been looking at stochastic and heuristic searches in defined zones
Muttley [3k\]: where a "zone" is a set of points, rather than bounded area
]
;W[on]WL[3826.115]C[RayTomes [2d\]: IMO zen defends its groups when they get a bit weak
Persians [1k\]: m4 group safe, j9 cut later
]
;B[nm]BL[2362.721]C[vegmandu [3d\]: wow more chaos.
Muttley [3k\]: but, obviously related to a bounded area :)))
]
;W[ml]WL[3793.957]C[neophyte [5k\]: looks like there's going to be death
funakoshi [1k\]: o7 hard to save
vagabundo [3d\]: black six groups, white seven?
Cephei [2k\]: so black didnt want 3 weak groups, but 4
RayTomes [2d\]: p8 
Xiangqi [4k\]: yeah p8 then what?
unorthodox [9k\]: p7, p9?
zagzigman [1k\]: like yesterday, b will have a early resign.
Xiangqi [4k\]: ok
AutoAtari [1k\]: yeah looks like it
WackyFuse [6k\]: p8 then either capture one or the other?
RayTomes [2d\]: p7 q6 p9 p8 !!!
Muttley [3k\]: imho b should discard the stones and R6
funkyj: will someone do commentary afterwards?
Ph1xi3 [-\]: B p14 a key stone
unorthodox [9k\]: ...and that is why I'm on a loosing streak :/
Xiangqi [4k\]: no way those stones are champs
Uberdude [2d?\]: o8
]
;B[om]BL[2271.984]C[Xiangqi [4k\]: cut w into 3 groups
funakoshi [1k\]: tromp will review
Montecchio [1k?\]: aji keshi like a boss
AutoAtari [1k\]: if j7 dies, it's all over
Uberdude [2d?\]: and empty triangle
RayTomes [2d\]: weakens corner surely
WackyFuse [6k\]: funkyj, live dan commentary on PaperTiger's clone
funkyj: thx
Uberdude [2d?\]: this sucks
ThiGar [4k\]: @Muttley: now i presume the better programs "mix" raw MC with shape analysis for the first few moves. Maybe a bot developper can tell us more.
]
;W[pn]WL[3762.255]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: no squeeze?
Uberdude [2d?\]: empty trianglre is correct
]
;B[nk]BL[2252.934]C[Persians [1k\]: no, p8 only
Tetriste [1d\]: just r9?
Tetriste [1d\]: nvm
]
;W[ik]WL[3714.719]C[Tetriste [1d\]: p9?
vegmandu [3d\]: sacrifice and take q5 if possible
Tetriste [1d\]: theres still that ko tho -.-
rsun [4d\]: b losing
funkyj: not try to take N7 stones?
reprisal [4d?\]: it looks dead enough that sacrifice is about hte only option
reprisal [4d?\]: b opening seemed great
Montecchio [1k?\]: H10 doesn't work
reprisal [4d?\]: then he started playing absurdly thin
reprisal [4d?\]: i dont understand why
rsun [4d\]: L4 was the right move
rsun [4d\]: f3 bound to be pincered
reprisal [4d?\]: seems that you can win the long game against AI
Muttley [3k\]: imho, the correct strategy against bots is not to give them a weak group to latch on to
reprisal [4d?\]: just be patient and wait til they play strange moves
Muttley [3k\]: local analysis seems to be a strength
RayTomes [2d\]: L8
Montecchio [1k?\]: wait till their monte carlo misses your tesuji
reprisal [4d?\]: h9 is completely mystifying to me
reprisal [4d?\]: and n6 too
Bilapidate [1d?\]: L8
kazdabot [7k\]: 57.8% wins for w according to cs...
timothy [24k?\]: k9 now?
funkyj: How do I find PaperTiger's clone game?
RayTomes [2d\]: B has M3 to aim for
AutoAtari [1k\]: they were counter-mayo moves
Montecchio [1k?\]: white captures H9, ko on bottom left not bad for white anymore
Ph1xi3 [-\]: White aiming for roughly 15 move tesuji
reprisal [4d?\]: they dont even have to miss a tesuji
caribbean [3k\]: 60% according to Fuego
robertpcx [2k\]: is tromp pro player?
reprisal [4d?\]: 4d positional judgement is better than zen's
Persians [1k\]: kaz, how do you know cs winrate?
Uberdude [2d?\]: h9 is trying to out zen zen
domanic [1k\]: yeah
kazdabot [7k\]: no, he's around 4d kgs
reprisal [4d?\]: just avoid this open-ended center fighting
reprisal [4d?\]: where you get minced
kazdabot [7k\]: cs almost didn't consider J9
vegmandu [3d\]: b q9?
reprisal [4d?\]: also: playing thin is bad form against humans too :)
Tetriste [1d\]: I'm surprised zen19n runs only on a single computer though
AutoAtari [1k\]: Persians, http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/index.html
Ph1xi3 [-\]: If B misses what white is after  its over. B has one way ticket.
caribbean [3k\]: c5 sente
Persians [1k\]: thanks
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Zen lost first game when Tromp killed small group in center of board.  Should try to do the same here.
kazdabot [7k\]: tetriste... zen runs on 2 cpu's
kazdabot [7k\]: 6 cores each
lorentz [?\]: Remi, your Crazy Analysis pages are great. Thanks for that!
OrenIshii [7k\]: funkyj, right-click  his name->view iinfo->games
Bilapidate [1d?\]: ...before its too L8
Muttley [3k\]: "try" being the operative word
kazdabot [7k\]: Lorentz, Rémi is sleeping
Tetriste [1d\]: ok, hideki said single computer the other day tho :'(
Muttley [3k\]: what is Remi's username here?
lorentz [?\]: Oh, thanks. Good point....
kazdabot [7k\]: ah really?
vagabundo [3d\]: black cant save both here
kazdabot [7k\]: that's confusing
AutoAtari [1k\]: a single computer can have 2 cpus
WackyFuse [6k\]: Muttley: RemiCoulon
Muttley [3k\]: thanks wacky :)
darrencook [?\]: Single computer, dual 6-core (12-cores) See http://dcook.org/gobet/
kazdabot [7k\]: ah ok that's it
caribbean [3k\]: darren you should've bet $1000 this time
qQQp [-\]: It is Coulom with an m
darrencook [?\]: Once bitten, twice shy
Persians [1k\]: ..................
wuwei [4k\]: as long as it is solving a single problem it is always a single "computer"
Muttley [3k\]: heh, that is rather simplistic, wuwei
WackyFuse [6k\]: ah, right. my bad. thanks qQQp
Tetriste [1d\]: I wonder how strong it would be on my computer :O
pinkey [7k\]: tell that to a hadoop cluster
wuwei [4k\]: or not simplistic at all
darrencook [?\]: Anyway John would not have taken the bet; he predicted he'd lose the match...
oak [4k\]: I think black should try the nonsense move L7, and then drive out to nowhere. As he is lost anyway, playing a nonsense move that may cause the N8 group to get captured seems a decent chance to take.
vagabundo [3d\]: p9, o8?
shyin [11k\]: k9 j10 l9 ? or is that group dead anyway?
vagabundo [3d\]: what to play, mmmm
kazdabot [7k\]: K9 H10 according to cs
robertpcx [2k\]: this conversation is confusing:)
Persians [1k\]: 1000..........
Montecchio [1k?\]: black isn't dead anywhere
RayTomes [2d\]: L7 is indeed nonsense, as it is already taken
kazdabot [7k\]: but cs didn't think a lot on that move
WackyFuse [6k\]: oak, L7 has been played.
Muttley [3k\]: I don't think making shape for black is bad, with K9 then L8
Persians [1k\]: 1000.....
jwdown [10k\]: who won last night? 
sanpei [6k\]: L8
caribbean [3k\]: zen
Tetriste [1d\]: zen 
oak [4k\]: Sorry, L8 I meant. Not quite the same level of nonsense!
vagabundo [3d\]: seems like will win today too
AutoAtari [1k\]: my best suggestion for b is resign
RayTomes [2d\]: no need for k9, just L8 (tho L9 is possoble)
epsilon3 [1d?\]: any choice but k9?
kazdabot [7k\]: Tromp resigned when cs said 57% wins for b yesterday.  it's now over 57% win for w... and human still play :P
Tetriste [1d\]: cool than tromp didnt actually bet that 1000$
robertpcx [2k\]: what would be the fun in that
kazdabot [7k\]: yeah, now he's playing only his honor, knowledge, hard work and ego
Persians [1k\]: l8 or k9. l8 better, but still bad
kazdabot [7k\]: worth more than 1000 bucks to me
]
;B[kk]BL[1702.396]C[uurtamo [-\]: nice
reprisal [4d?\]: moment of truth!!
Tetriste [1d\]: 100$ per points ahead seems like an ok cash game
darrencook [?\]: @kazdabot More potential for white to screw up with this board position
kazdabot [7k\]: true
kazdabot [7k\]: cs didn't like J9
AutoAtari [1k\]: w takes l7, b gets out
Ukasuhs [3d\]: w cant take l7
Zen19Q [3d\]: interesting fight
]
;W[lj]WL[3659.058]C[RayTomes [2d\]: cs said J9 goodfor B but had no better move ... makes a lot sense right?
vagabundo [3d\]: m10?
caribbean [3k\]: get ready for a crazy move
caribbean [3k\]: that
AutoAtari [1k\]: ooh
Xiangqi [4k\]: what?
Xiangqi [4k\]: this works?
kazdabot [7k\]: ??
kazdabot [7k\]: hmm
Zen19Q [3d\]: but i'm on zen's side.
kazdabot [7k\]: not to me
kazdabot [7k\]: I'm on zen side too :P
vegmandu [3d\]: b has to worry about w p9
Zen19Q [3d\]: the strategy is wrong.
cyryts [2k\]: of course it works, how dare you doubt zen??
reprisal [4d?\]: b has too many worries to worry about them by now
Xiangqi [4k\]: well its pretty astounding at first glance
funakoshi [1k\]: p9?
awesome [5k\]: I bet it works
vagabundo [3d\]: l8 n10 p9 k10 
Zen19Q [3d\]: to play with zen, you need conservative and solid play
megabeest [1k\]: p9 is threat now
sanpei [6k\]: P9
vagabundo [3d\]: and j7 dead
Muttley [3k\]: heh, it is also over 30 minutes ahead
]
;B[pk]BL[1616.502]C[AutoAtari [1k\]: Ukasuhs I was thinking w l8, but this seems better
Zen19Q [3d\]: just wait for zen's impatience.
kazdabot [7k\]: I'd be extremely surprised if Tromp win this game
vagabundo [3d\]: k10
Montecchio [1k?\]: can B kill Q6 in one move?
vagabundo [3d\]: ?
maher139 [4k\]: you wouldn't have said that in the opening
OrenIshii [7k\]: q9 was bad
]
;W[nj]WL[3628.382]C[JeansebL [4d\]: black has a lot of cash
caribbean [3k\]: zen plays too fast
vagabundo [3d\]: ouch
Xiangqi [4k\]: I wouldnt just for the fact that if you go against the majority of kibitzers you'll be right a really high percentage of the time
Uberdude [2d?\]: j9 did seemcash?
vegmandu [3d\]: q8
Tetriste [1d\]: o10 feels inspired from q9 0.0
Ukasuhs [3d\]: maybe resign time
Zen19Q [3d\]: if w c5, b dead?
epsilon3 [1d?\]: ok, this is not a computer... it found O10 in no time at all
Montecchio [1k?\]: hash tables?
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Read sequqnce
kazdabot [7k\]: it's a monster :D
Ph1xi3 [-\]: sequence
JeansebL [4d\]: just q8
lepore [1d\]: b needs to go to ATM
Uberdude [2d?\]: r4/r3 next?
kazdabot [7k\]: ATM?
lepore [1d\]: get $1,000
AutoAtari [1k\]: he didn't bet money this time
darrencook [?\]: Yes, the bots cache their previous moves search...
pinkey [7k\]: cash machine
kazdabot [7k\]: there's no money involved
RayTomes [2d\]: so if W lose Q6 and kill J8, W gets HUGE centre
Persians [1k\]: kill d5 group later
darrencook [?\]: ...as long as opponent plays something they expected
]
;B[pl]BL[1510.672]C[kazdabot [7k\]: yes darren
Muttley [3k\]: b can't defend both sides now
Detroit [10k?\]: yeah there is money
Muttley [3k\]: so it's a trade
RayTomes [2d\]: K9
Detroit [10k?\]: big money
kazdabot [7k\]: lol no
Ukasuhs [3d\]: r4 r3 s3 w can live easilly
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Ray, do you know how small a center can get in this position?
caribbean [3k\]: 63% for w
RayTomes [2d\]: B dies in middle and W wins
Detroit [10k?\]: um, zen is sold as a commercial product
kazdabot [7k\]: 59.8% for w according to cs
Detroit [10k?\]: zen will make a lot of money for winning this
vegmandu [3d\]: no ray I think b still has a chance
reprisal [4d?\]: i see a center getting  verybig, not very small
separovic [19k?\]: no bet money envolved?! man... i'm going to sleep
Montecchio [1k?\]: W r4, B r5
kazdabot [7k\]: false Detroit
]
;W[mk]WL[3574.192]C[Detroit [10k?\]: huh?
kazdabot [7k\]: Zen can be purchased only in Japan and it's an old version
Zen19Q [3d\]: what is b's level?
funakoshi [1k\]: p8
kazdabot [7k\]: rated 1d or 2
caribbean [3k\]: 2d egf
kazdabot [7k\]: this zen is not in sell
reprisal [4d?\]: b is about kgs 4d
Persians [1k\]: w l10 close.
Detroit [10k?\]: so, it is still good for advertising
Persians [1k\]: resign time
Uberdude [2d?\]: or 3d
awesome [5k\]: zen will spend his cash on more cache
kazdabot [7k\]: yeah sure
]
;B[ol]BL[1464.666]C[Uberdude [2d?\]: or 2d
Tetriste [1d\]: nice shape
RayTomes [2d\]: k9
TomoyaKun [3d\]: or 5d
Uberdude [2d?\]: na
reprisal [4d?\]: tromp is definitely not 2d kgs
caribbean [3k\]: q5
BOThater36 [5d\]: B is better than me
Ph1xi3 [-\]: q9 bad shape for B
qQQp [-\]: If zen wins it get a new CPU cooler
kazdabot [7k\]: it's over
JeansebL [4d\]: black doesn't seem very strong to me
]
;W[go]WL[3543.876]C[Persians [1k\]: L10 close is enough
royu [3d\]: wow, pretty amazing to see a bot this strong...
TomoyaKun [3d\]: to me neither...
AutoAtari [1k\]: tenuki like a boss
Ritm [6k\]: J9 is weird
reprisal [4d?\]: this is not one of his better games
RayTomes [2d\]: w thinks B dead enough in middle already!
JeansebL [4d\]: definitely better dans 2d kgs though
vegmandu [3d\]:  g6
Montecchio [1k?\]: c5
Ritm [6k\]: maybe he hasnt play in a while
shy [-\]: c5 b3 c8 
Zen19Q [3d\]: c5 sente?
Zen19Q [3d\]: then c8.
Montecchio [1k?\]: c5 kills corner with ko
RayTomes [2d\]: he won first game - definitely far better than kgs 2d can do (I know I am kgs 2d)
Montecchio [1k?\]: except B has no threats
ThiGar [4k\]: is e5 dead yet?
shy [-\]: c5 b3 c8 c7 b7 b8 b9 b6 a7 ....
Ukasuhs [3d\]: what ko?
xgw09 [1d\]: zen19q  is zen19n's cousin?
caribbean [3k\]: you can do it on 15 blitz RT
RayTomes [2d\]: ko at c5
vegmandu [3d\]: b c5 seems better
caribbean [3k\]: you cant*
kazdabot [7k\]: zen19q is just a fan like us
kazdabot [7k\]: lol
Ukasuhs [3d\]: montecchio, what ko
reprisal [4d?\]: c5 c6 d6 one
]
;B[gp]BL[1345.769]C[AutoAtari [1k\]: c5 b2 a4
Montecchio [1k?\]: yeah that ko
Tetriste [1d\]: should w play c5 or c6
]
;W[hj]WL[3528.746]C[xgw09 [1d\]: solid take!
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Now B dead in middle
Persians [1k\]: center b die
funakoshi [1k\]: pro style^^
BOThater36 [5d\]: C5?
oak [4k\]: Well that cat is definitely dead now.
kazdabot [7k\]: over 63% win... this is getting worse at every move
sedgwick [6d?\]: m3? Seems big sente
]
;B[co]BL[1305.076]C[JeansebL [4d\]: c5 only move right now...
LeoMar [5k\]: some ko therats for the kko, though
kazdabot [7k\]: at last
BOThater36 [5d\]: aja, say something
xgw09 [1d\]: g4 seems bad?
Cephei [2k\]: this is like zen would have a long term strategy to get the center
sanpei [6k\]: K10
kazdabot [7k\]: aja is in the other room
kazdabot [7k\]: by papertiger i think
BOThater36 [5d\]: then, gogo
caribbean [3k\]: fuego: 57% for w
funakoshi [1k\]: aja is in papertiger's clone
AutoAtari [1k\]: aja is commenting in that dumb clone :p
Montecchio [1k?\]: if W has to remove center group's liberties, it's not that big
]
;W[rn]WL[3483.262]C[reprisal [4d?\]: s6 seems to give b a chance to kill
RayTomes [2d\]: final humiliation
Montecchio [1k?\]: s7?
JeansebL [4d\]: s4
AutoAtari [1k\]: I didn't expect that
LeoMar [5k\]: w also preparing ko threats?
funakoshi [1k\]: s8
reprisal [4d?\]: zen can't fight ko
reprisal [4d?\]: much less prepare for them
maher139 [4k\]: lol
royu [3d\]: jeez, when did bots get so good? when i stopped playing go a while back, I felt I could still give the best bot 4 handi
]
;B[rp]BL[1226.789]C[reprisal [4d?\]: few years ago, when MC was introduced
ThiGar [4k\]: w wants everything? I thought bots were aiming for a 0.5 victory.
funakoshi [1k\]: heh, try give this one handi^^
reprisal [4d?\]: MC jumped them a LOT
royu [3d\]: MC = monte carlo?
reprisal [4d?\]: yeah
Naphthalin [9k\]: no, mcdonald food
Persians [1k\]: b2 get a ko
Tetriste [1d\]: not really a long while ago, I think when I started playing best was around 1d?
]
;W[rl]WL[3441.874]C[reprisal [4d?\]: also: wb, royu
royu [3d\]: I can eat McDonalds too 
Xiangqi [4k\]: and the funny thing is MC costs dan level bots a lot of won endings
royu [3d\]: thx reprisal, nice to see you here :)
RayTomes [2d\]: you give mcdonalds to humans and bots get better  ;-)
Bilapidate [1d?\]: S9?
reprisal [4d?\]: some things don't change :)
Persians [1k\]: W b2 get a ko?
]
;B[oj]BL[1169.729]C[caribbean [3k\]: dont see how this works
royu [3d\]: pretty exciting to see AI this strong. terminator judgement day probably starts from this Zen bot
reprisal [4d?\]: tsk tsk royu
Zen19Q [3d\]: r10
reprisal [4d?\]: that joke's been made a million times
vagabundo [3d\]: fell, not AI
sanpei [6k\]: R10
reprisal [4d?\]: your kibbitz is out of practice
maher139 [4k\]: rather depressing seeing bots getting this strong
Mysigh [9k\]: did you guys know we already have Skynet???
]
;W[ni]WL[3397.19]C[ThiGar [4k\]: @Xiangqi: can't MC be "disconnected" for the end game?
Uberdude [2d?\]: why np s9?
vagabundo [3d\]: yes, I use it every day to talk
JeansebL [4d\]: lol, 4-5d is not strong....
Xiangqi [4k\]: dont worry man. people still go see the olymics even though cars can go faster than humans
reprisal [4d?\]: jean>>it's better than 95% of kgs
Montecchio [1k?\]: humans consume less gasoline
reprisal [4d?\]: so for most people, it is damn strong indeed
JeansebL [4d\]: yeah, that's what I'm saying, kgs is weak :)
maher139 [4k\]: well, considering kgs average is like.... 2k
Xiangqi [4k\]: no you're strong.
happyberry [8k\]: and the computers get more powerful every year, people don't :)
Detroit [10k?\]: a lot of gasoline is used to move food to your house...
vagabundo [3d\]: for me strong = 7d or more
vagabundo [3d\]: maybe some strong 6d
vegmandu [3d\]: 7d or more is very strong.
Ukasuhs [3d\]: bots have to learn how to play go and not just how to read before they can play against pros
vagabundo [3d\]: like Aguilar
caribbean [3k\]: ppl get stronger evreyear
Xiangqi [4k\]: if you dont think thatds true just becuase whatever teacher you have can blast you off the board in a handi game then you are mistaken
caribbean [3k\]: kgs average was 6k before
vegmandu [3d\]: almost pro.
maher139 [4k\]: only a matter of time till bots get 9d.
JeansebL [4d\]: for me strong is playing 2 stones or less with pros
Xiangqi [4k\]: thats ridiculously strong
Tetriste [1d\]: aguilar has beaten pros before :D
]
;B[rk]BL[1058.802]C[happyberry [8k\]: maybe if you can read well enough, you don't need to know anything :)
ThiGar [4k\]: has there ever been a bot - big bad wolf match?
vagabundo [3d\]: long time ago tetriste
reprisal [4d?\]: yes, but you are mid dan, you have higher standards than most
reprisal [4d?\]: most people consider 4d pretty strong
costco [2k\]: no bot could beat big bad wolf
]
;W[qj]WL[3361.737]C[reprisal [4d?\]: of course that is also part kgs
funakoshi [1k\]: for now
pinkey [7k\]: heck, I consider 4d? strong :)
reprisal [4d?\]: where 4d may be the top game playing
reprisal [4d?\]: its backwater here :(
qQQp [-\]: Bots have beaten pros in handicap, but I like even games more with similar level opponents
ricedragon [2k\]: i thought kgs average was like 7-8k
royu [3d\]: 4d is like the level you can get to without really trying
Mysigh [9k\]: r7 
funakoshi [1k\]: eye vs no eye?
royu [3d\]: as in, not studying the game very deeply imo
Persians [1k\]: b 4 lib
apetresc [1d?\]: Says the 3d
Xiangqi [4k\]: then why do I know a lot of really smart successful people who play go that will never ever got to 4d?
Tetriste [1d\]: whats deep for you
vagabundo [3d\]: I'm very weak, but I have an 4d account too
Zen19Q [3d\]: so it's over?
ThiGar [4k\]: anybody knows a site showing kgs global stats?
vagabundo [3d\]: thats says all
JeansebL [4d\]: when you get crushed by 8 years old 9d tygem korean kid, you realize pretty quickly that 4d sucks lol
mongol [?\]: because they have jobs...
Xiangqi [4k\]: seriously. if you think 4d is weak you have a really skewed sense of whats weak and strong
]
;B[qk]BL[978.59]C[WackyFuse [6k\]: thigar, senseis used to have a graph of that
kazdabot [7k\]: about 67% wins for w according to cs
maher139 [4k\]: well 4d isn't strong, but it's not weak either
reprisal [4d?\]: somewhere around 4d is where it gets really hard, really fast
kazdabot [7k\]: unless of a bug, zen wins this
vegmandu [3d\]: b dead
Xiangqi [4k\]: some of those kids have been training with their pro level relatives for a long time
shy [-\]: you know, its relative
]
;W[rj]WL[3333.42]C[shy [-\]: to a pro, any 7d is weak
shy [-\]: to a kyu, any dan is insanely strong
Montecchio [1k?\]: to another pro, everyone is weak
funakoshi [1k\]: r7 only chance
Suphyph [14k?\]: what's the match score so far?
Tetriste [1d\]: a pro said I was strong 0.0
Ukasuhs [3d\]: not every pro is super duper strong
kazdabot [7k\]: it's over Sup
shyin [11k\]: didnt r8 work better? or is it the same?
Suphyph [14k?\]: oh
kazdabot [7k\]: it's 2 to 1 in zen's favor
kazdabot [7k\]: now zen 3 to 1
kazdabot [7k\]: zen rules
shyin [11k\]: instead of r9
caribbean [3k\]: b rez if loses this
Persians [1k\]: short lib
Gyre [2d\]: It seems like several players do a lot better against zen in their first few games
Suphyph [14k?\]: so it's best of 5, and this match will finish it...
kazdabot [7k\]: gogonuts has positive score vs zen i think
tesuji [-\]: R7
kazdabot [7k\]: pkunzip too, who is rated 3d
AutoAtari [1k\]: heh, CS says 66% for w
Mysigh [9k\]: i said r7 too
royu [3d\]: r7, w has ko option
sedgwick [6d?\]: seems b ahead one lib after r7 right?
vegmandu [3d\]: r7 worth a try
tesuji [-\]: yea, one lib
AutoAtari [1k\]: 67%
tesuji [-\]: or ko
kazdabot [7k\]: 66.4 or so
reprisal [4d?\]: this is where tromp is quite good
Montecchio [1k?\]: or W just plays T9
reprisal [4d?\]: he can read these fights accurately (and does)
Tetriste [1d\]: b getting short a bit on libs
Ukasuhs [3d\]: looks like b just dies
brainiaq [2k\]: 66.4 is a meaingless number in this situation
brainiaq [2k\]: somebody dies
brainiaq [2k\]: right here
kazdabot [7k\]: not meaningless
kazdabot [7k\]: means b dies
brainiaq [2k\]: it isn't a random process right now
funakoshi [1k\]: r7 works, no?
Xiangqi [4k\]: indeed meaningless
kazdabot [7k\]: bot thinks b dies here
Xiangqi [4k\]: if b dies then it should just be 100%
vagabundo [3d\]: r7 lend to ko I think
caribbean [3k\]: after r7 i count w ahead on libs
kazdabot [7k\]: no
Ukasuhs [3d\]: if 66.4% meant b absolutely died... would it be more like 95%?
Xiangqi [4k\]: yes
kazdabot [7k\]: never reaches 100%
happyberry [8k\]: wonder how strong one of these things would be on a fancy machine
]
;B[sl]BL[796.17]C[RayTomes [2d\]: r7 r6 s7 t7 r8 s9 is ko
reprisal [4d?\]: maybe it means ko
vegmandu [3d\]: r7 is ko if w wants is to be
kazdabot [7k\]: u don't know MC algorithm do you?
Montecchio [1k?\]: this is on a fancy machine
kazdabot [7k\]: xiangqi
Ph1xi3 [-\]: And all and all this was because B played q9 in thinking he could save both sides... sad
Mysigh [9k\]: i like :D
Xiangqi [4k\]: so thats what i mean that 66% or whatever is a really useless number
brainiaq [2k\]: i have a phd in cs from MIT
brainiaq [2k\]: i work in machine learning
kazdabot [7k\]: no it's not useless, it means b dies
brainiaq [2k\]: i know what mc is
funakoshi [1k\]: simply s7 end the game
vagabundo [3d\]: this seems like a mistake
vegmandu [3d\]: s7 
]
;W[sm]WL[3299.405]C[vegmandu [3d\]: right
RayTomes [2d\]: w only needs life for one of q6 and c3 to win the game
xgw09 [1d\]: ko?
caribbean [3k\]: 61%
Mysigh [9k\]: now r7?
Persians [1k\]: no ko
Montecchio [1k?\]: c3 can't live in one move
pinpingho [?\]: r7 now is too late...
kazdabot [7k\]: well that was a quick win
caribbean [3k\]: wont reach 100 moves
kazdabot [7k\]: :/
vagabundo [3d\]: montecchio, its the same as say that black need another move to remove the aji 
godman [1d?\]: b in trouble
JeansebL [4d\]: it's impressive that white plays sequences like that, and sometimes 15k moves lol
Mysigh [9k\]: Connecting is bad?
Ukasuhs [3d\]: montecchio, what if w plays a2
kazdabot [7k\]: at this point yes my
kazdabot [7k\]: mysigh
kazdabot [7k\]: b just dead... need to tenuki or resign
Mysigh [9k\]: ok
vagabundo [3d\]: the thing is that if white kills here the game is over
funakoshi [1k\]: first game Tromp was very patient and calm
RayTomes [2d\]: yes
shy [-\]: a2 a4 isnt it
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 a4 b1
kazdabot [7k\]: in the first game zen was leading and blundered
Ph1xi3 [-\]: It is due the random generations of moves... if a bad move produces more wins (with bad opponent moves) it is taken... bot logic
Montecchio [1k?\]: a2 c1?
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 c1 b1
caribbean [3k\]: b3 kills?
timothy [24k?\]: isnt b running out of time to think soon? or does he get new time at 100 moves or something?
TomoyaKun [3d\]: b3 kills yes
vagabundo [3d\]: a2-b1
WackyFuse [6k\]: timothy, byoyomi, canadian
vagabundo [3d\]: i think
Gyre [2d\]: B3 kills?
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 is not unconditional life, but it makes a better ko for w than b2
WackyFuse [6k\]: check options->rules
caribbean [3k\]: so why all the a2 stuff
shy [-\]: b b3 is dead shape
Xiangqi [4k\]: I feel as a kyu player i should point out...
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 for w... not for b
kazdabot [7k\]: T9 and P3 is the continuation according to cs
Xiangqi [4k\]: that B has 4 corners and is indeed, like the proverb says, losing
xoom [1d\]: the law when fighting a bot, fuseki = hah I can handle this, mid game = I can still do this, yose = rage quit
vagabundo [3d\]: a2-b1
royu [3d\]: looking at some of Zen's past games, I'm impressed how much value it puts on center. forgoes corner play quickly
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 b1 a4
Ukasuhs [3d\]: very good ko for w
Xiangqi [4k\]: all the dan level bots do that
BigMac [6k?\]: zen19 is computer?
kazdabot [7k\]: yes
delphideo [21k\]: Yes
tesuji [-\]: w can live in the lower left without ko
Ukasuhs [3d\]: no he cant
tesuji [-\]: why not?
RayTomes [2d\]: how?
LeoMar [5k\]: how, tesuji?
pinpingho [?\]: a2 does looks like an unconditional life
brainiaq [2k\]: because of go
tesuji [-\]: a2, then?
vagabundo [3d\]: well, ko still I think
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Center is more easily lead into live or die... Bots are best at that due the long and fast reading.
Tetriste [1d\]: b1
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 b1 is not unconditional life
kazdabot [7k\]: T9 P11 now according to cs
Ukasuhs [3d\]: but, its a very good ko for w
vagabundo [3d\]: but yes, better ko 
Montecchio [1k?\]: a2 b1 b2 
royu [3d\]: seems it's gg
funakoshi [1k\]: over now
Ukasuhs [3d\]: then c1 >.< death
Tetriste [1d\]: b2 c1
Montecchio [1k?\]: a4>
kazdabot [7k\]: 68% of random simulated games ended in w wins
kazdabot [7k\]: for cs
tesuji [-\]: a2, b1, a4, then?
royu [3d\]: b dead, r3 or b2 still open
BigMac [6k?\]: 4d for a bot..can be pro soon?
vagabundo [3d\]: b2
pinpingho [?\]: a2 b1 a4
RayTomes [2d\]: a2 b1 b2 c1 
caribbean [3k\]: yeah 30 years is soon enough
kazdabot [7k\]: not really bigmac... needs another breakthrough in go progrmaming
Tetriste [1d\]: b will just resign
happyberry [8k\]: sooner than any of us :)
shy [-\]: i think tesuji is right o.o
Tetriste [1d\]: besides he's low on time now
tesuji [-\]: a2, b1, b2, c1, then d1
kazdabot [7k\]: yeah it's over IMO
Ukasuhs [3d\]: a2 b1 a4 b2 b3 d1 e1 c2 ko
RayTomes [2d\]: time is least of problems
kazdabot [7k\]: congrats to zen
Ukasuhs [3d\]: but still, its a good ko for white
vagabundo [3d\]: can't be low on time, 10 minutes/25 stones for byo
AutoAtari [1k\]: tesuji, then a4 ko
qQQp [-\]: I would have prefered a 5th game /p
AutoAtari [1k\]: no, a4 kills
kazdabot [7k\]: we all would hve :)
royu [3d\]: i must play this bot! would be lovely to get this program on my phone/pad
caribbean [3k\]: next time best of seven
cjalden [2k\]: spectators always resign the games they are watching sooner than they would resign their own games
JeansebL [4d\]: n6 was bad, black should just have played h6
]
;B[qm]BL[379.982]C[Tetriste [1d\]: of course its still slow, but its another advantage for zen
Mysigh [9k\]: lol
tesuji [-\]: why did w play e1 and not just c2?
JeansebL [4d\]: he had a very good game
Tetriste [1d\]: r6 
x0000 [1d\]: a2 b1 a4 b2 b3 d1 c2?
Mysigh [9k\]: ^_^
Imagingo [17k\]: you see the game clearer from afar, often
Mysigh [9k\]: i guess its not too late after all
reprisal [4d?\]: yeah opening was going great for b
]
;W[qn]WL[3268.956]C[reprisal [4d?\]: then he got impatient
vagabundo [3d\]: black is dead here
]
;B[sk]BL[374.856]C[reprisal [4d?\]: forced a hard fight, and lost horribly
vagabundo [3d\]: q10
Tetriste [1d\]: q10 
royu [3d\]: yep q10
kazdabot [7k\]: sigh
vegmandu [3d\]: its 4 to 4 and w fills first
]
;W[pj]WL[3241.656]C[Persians [1k\]: ..............
Gyre [2d\]: Zen is brutal in these fights
Tetriste [1d\]: incoming resign ;)
kazdabot [7k\]: resignus tempus
polonius [2d?\]: so that's it then
polonius [2d?\]: we're nothing more than slaves
RayTomes [2d\]: it is over
reprisal [4d?\]: nah
kazdabot [7k\]: bots are our masters
Montecchio [1k?\]: p11?
reprisal [4d?\]: we just need a 7d to make the same bet
Gyre [2d\]: Feels like black shouldn't have traded T8 t7 first?
Naphthalin [9k\]: no, we are their masters
Tetriste [1d\]: p11 p12
kazdabot [7k\]: :P
Imagingo [17k\]: how long until bots are 7d?
kazdabot [7k\]: im under zen's feet right now
BigMac [6k?\]: less than 1 year?
trilobyte [?\]: how many processors is this running on?
Montecchio [1k?\]: 12
RayTomes [2d\]: bots 7d in 2 years
kazdabot [7k\]: probably more... lol
royu [3d\]: t-1000, come kill me now
vagabundo [3d\]: nobody knows
Imagingo [17k\]: I think 12, tritobyte
Ukasuhs [3d\]: zen is running on a duel 6 core
polonius [2d?\]: not very long. bots hit 1d two years ago or so
caribbean [3k\]: td in 15 secs blitz more likely
royu [3d\]: Zender's Game
kazdabot [7k\]: the strongest hardware version of zen is 6d
Detroit [10k?\]: dual 6 core is not even a lot of hw
Ph1xi3 [-\]: You can't compere bots against a kgs dans. But yes a 7d kgs is possible in some years yes
sedgwick [6d?\]: b should take m4 senet while he has it?:)
Imagingo [17k\]: so 7d should feel insecure, too. And after that, the pros
harrimanez [1d\]: 10 years
reprisal [4d?\]: its hard to say, strength is very nonlinear
caribbean [3k\]: zen thinking for the rst time
vegmandu [3d\]: r7 worked
]
;B[ro]BL[264.204]C[t1000: are you the legal guardians of john connor?
royu [3d\]: oh no!
kazdabot [7k\]: lol t1000
royu [3d\]: run
t1000: i know this hurts. call to john now.
Slogger [1d\]: so b lost again
Tetriste [1d\]: t10 
vegmandu [3d\]: he shoudl ahve played it instead of t8
]
;W[br]WL[3194.123]C[Tetriste [1d\]: hahaha
royu [3d\]: wow tenuki
Persians [1k\]: ................
WackyFuse [6k\]: ouch
Gyre [2d\]: Does that work???
caribbean [3k\]: i knew this was gunna happen
kazdabot [7k\]: LOL
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Hehe one to live, one to die
Rambam [3k\]: :O
Montecchio [1k?\]: like a boss
vagabundo [3d\]: now white let black chose
vegmandu [3d\]: haah:()
xoom [1d\]: if Go AI progress follows moore's law, we'd have terminators soon
Detroit [10k?\]: oh god 
Montecchio [1k?\]: no, we'd just BE terminators
sedgwick [6d?\]: take r7
pinkey [7k\]: terminatED
tesuji [-\]: random...
sedgwick [6d?\]: w cannot kill f3 grup
AutoAtari [1k\]: really?
RayTomes [2d\]: why bot plays b2? isn't killing r9 bigger?
Gyre [2d\]: Oh, right, F2 wil die if B2 lives
vegmandu [3d\]: wow.
]
;B[ap]BL[204.299]C[kazdabot [7k\]: there's no need anyway to kill that
TomoyaKun [3d\]: :|
LEIBNIZ [2k\]: /0\\
royu [3d\]: the amazing part of b2 tenuki, it is very much like what would happen in a real teaching game
Persians [1k\]: ................
]
;W[mq]WL[3177.08]C[vegmandu [3d\]: be could take r6 group right?
Persians [1k\]: bug bot
Rambam [3k\]: lulz
Montecchio [1k?\]: wut
kazdabot [7k\]: b dies all around it
TomoyaKun [3d\]: tromp used a huge amount of time
Tetriste [1d\]: I dont understand
Detroit [10k?\]: whats going ON
AutoAtari [1k\]: WHAT!!!
reprisal [4d?\]: wow
sedgwick [6d?\]: n3 huge
Ph1xi3 [-\]: W playing sentes
kazdabot [7k\]: wow
]
;B[nq]BL[183.367]C[Tetriste [1d\]: a10 is bigger?
Montecchio [1k?\]: smaller than... the 50 point capturing race
kazdabot [7k\]: A10???
kazdabot [7k\]: ?
Persians [1k\]: o8 b die
Mysigh [9k\]: lol
vegmandu [3d\]: right 
vegmandu [3d\]: o8 b die
]
;W[bq]WL[3145.735]
;B[cs]BL[180.225]C[kazdabot [7k\]: 72% wins now for w
Persians [1k\]: b canot t6, short lib
polonius [2d?\]: w is cat playing with mouse
TomoyaKun [3d\]: does zen know about bent-four in a corner?
Gyre [2d\]: This is going to sound stupid, but can't black R8?
Montecchio [1k?\]: does zen know about bent four?
Montecchio [1k?\]: or does zen just read it out
caribbean [3k\]: 65%
kazdabot [7k\]: i dont know
]
;W[cc]WL[3097.802]C[polonius [2d?\]: chinese rules
AutoAtari [1k\]: b3 was odd
Persians [1k\]: ?
polonius [2d?\]: no special treatment for bent 4
kazdabot [7k\]: ah ok
Mysigh [9k\]: n4 m3 for B?
panchaohao [4d\]: but still dying
mongol [?\]: crazy stone is happy now
Slogger [1d\]: ouch that hurts
Persians [1k\]: bug....................
Montecchio [1k?\]: under chinise rules, bent 4 in the corner should be played out
Montecchio [1k?\]: unless players agree it's dead
sanpei [6k\]: ?
cjalden [2k\]: r8 does not sound stupid
panchaohao [4d\]: unless there is a seki
]
;B[db]BL[143.697]C[Detroit [10k?\]: crazy stone screaming for p11
kazdabot [7k\]: lol yes cs thinks 75% wins for w
vagabundo [3d\]: bent four, where?
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Lower left
Montecchio [1k?\]: bottom left
kazdabot [7k\]: cs thought P11 better than O3
TomoyaKun [3d\]: if w d1
panchaohao [4d\]: bent 4 in a corner is dead unless there is a seki or sth
AutoAtari [1k\]: d1 a3
]
;W[cf]WL[3064.719]C[panchaohao [4d\]: even in chn rules
Montecchio [1k?\]: or infinite unremovable ko threats somewhere else
kazdabot [7k\]: but P11 is ridiculous
xoom [1d\]: CS is indeed happy now, it's been saying C17 ever since D14
Slogger [1d\]: C13
Montecchio [1k?\]: like a double ko somewhere
reprisal [4d?\]: or a semeai, which in this case seems possiible
Tetriste [1d\]: w gets b7 sente though
vagabundo [3d\]: but where do you see a bent four?
shy [-\]: how is LL a bent 4??
Mysigh [9k\]: to ribbo s
kazdabot [7k\]: it's because cs is weak in corners
shy [-\]: its just dead locally
Mysigh [9k\]: *ribbons
TomoyaKun [3d\]: in lower left corner
tesuji [-\]: how does white answer R8?
TomoyaKun [3d\]: if w d1
AutoAtari [1k\]: d1 a3
dokabehi [2d?\]: w b1?
vagabundo [3d\]: d1-a3....
shy [-\]: d1 a3 a2 b1 
shy [-\]: ...
]
;B[cg]BL[105.975]C[TomoyaKun [3d\]: hmm
kazdabot [7k\]: 74% wins.... for cs
AutoAtari [1k\]: bent 3 :)
vagabundo [3d\]: haha
OgawaKun [28k\]: E16
RayTomes [2d\]: I think players think W daed on lower right
tesuji [-\]: bottom left should've lived outright, it wasn't a ko
vagabundo [3d\]: its almost bent four
RayTomes [2d\]: daed*
TomoyaKun [3d\]: indeed might have overlooked that unsignificant move
RayTomes [2d\]: dead*
]
;W[bf]WL[3034.903]
;B[bc]BL[103.506]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: bottom left was a ko
panchaohao [4d\]: C12
reprisal [4d?\]: bent four is an option there if for some reason he cant a3
Tetriste [1d\]: b16
tesuji [-\]: but now black R8...
jcgo [10k\]: tromp is getting low on time :/
x0000 [1d\]: Shouldn't b r8?
]
;W[ci]WL[3010.102]C[tesuji [-\]: yes
OgawaKun [28k\]: C12
Tetriste [1d\]: okay?
Mysigh [9k\]: that a10 would come in handy now ^_^
reprisal [4d?\]: well now he might be in "handicap overplay" mode
Rambam [3k\]: C11 more important than the fight?
kazdabot [7k\]: lol
]
;B[bg]BL[73.411]C[reprisal [4d?\]: where you wait as long as possible to play a move you know you must play
Tetriste [1d\]: b16 
reprisal [4d?\]: but opponent doesnt seem to see
Montecchio [1k?\]: doesn't that die?
OgawaKun [28k\]: E16
TomoyaKun [3d\]: b13 dies
x0000 [1d\]: d15 dies too?
TomoyaKun [3d\]: why did he play it?
Montecchio [1k?\]: but B gets D16 stones
kazdabot [7k\]: D15 lives
]
;W[dg]WL[2967.84]C[OgawaKun [28k\]: D13
kimidori [2d\]: to test computer's skill
]
;B[ef]BL[71.179]C[kimidori [2d\]: lol
AutoAtari [1k\]: how does b13 die?
RayTomes [2d\]: d'oh!
Mysigh [9k\]: now e16
shy [14k?\]: b16 
Montecchio [1k?\]: W can squeeze with B16 first
kimidori [2d\]: B16
]
;W[eg]WL[2946.288]C[JeansebL [4d\]: this game is not over
kazdabot [7k\]: wow
kimidori [2d\]: and then kill
Montecchio [1k?\]: what...
TomoyaKun [3d\]: omg
kazdabot [7k\]: not over?
OgawaKun [28k\]: E15 was better
sanpei [6k\]: less time
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Overplay mode.
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Damn
Tetriste [1d\]: thats getting retarded again -.-
TomoyaKun [3d\]: w killed it all
Montecchio [1k?\]: watch black's center group live at move 273
TomoyaKun [3d\]: himself i mean
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Monte Carlo suicide
unorthodox [9k\]: it always was mentally challenged
TomoyaKun [3d\]: e16
JeansebL [4d\]: if w keeps playing shit like that, black might have a chance lol
shy [14k?\]: e15 had the disadvantage of not working at all
TomoyaKun [3d\]: no second thoughts about it!
sedgwick [6d?\]: yes, e16
RayTomes [2d\]: b all OK, but W seal him in
Tetriste [1d\]: I dont understand why not b16
Mysigh [9k\]: yea, total e16
kazdabot [7k\]: b no more time
]
;B[ff]BL[9.273]C[reprisal [4d?\]: seems MC gets MUCH worse when it thinkgs it is ahead
RickSako [7k?\]: e16 lol
kimidori [2d\]: 1 more
kazdabot [7k\]: time of blunders has come my friends
RayTomes [2d\]: oops
Mysigh [9k\]: hmm
TomoyaKun [3d\]: ....
Rambam [3k\]: lulz?!
sedgwick [6d?\]: b has l3 when gets sente
panchaohao [4d\]: ...
RayTomes [2d\]: b16 c18 b15 c17 c12 
reprisal [4d?\]: the quality of its moves has gone down substantially
Tetriste [1d\]: b16
tesuji [-\]: he decided the center was worth more
TomoyaKun [3d\]: ok b not even 1k kgs
Persians [1k\]: bug
Gyre [2d\]: F14 makes sense
]
;W[bd]WL[2921.573]C[vegmandu [3d\]: isn't b  going to die on the right? or did I miss something?
]
;B[cb]BL[4.397]C[polonius [2d?\]: bug in b?
Tetriste [1d\]: b dies everywhere
Montecchio [1k?\]: actually
Montecchio [1k?\]: e16 and a14 are miai?
tesuji [-\]: no, R8 works
]
;W[be]WL[2904.793]
;B[cc]BL[2.553]C[tesuji [-\]: but nobody listens because i don't have a ranked account :)
Gyre [2d\]: Black is leaving R8
shy [14k?\]: id be very careful to say b is not even 1k kgs Tomoya
kazdabot [7k\]: lol
Tetriste [1d\]: f15 
Gyre [2d\]: Because black thinks white doesn't see it
Montecchio [1k?\]: black beats me
kazdabot [7k\]: he's more than 1k KGS
]
;W[ch]WL[2885.785]C[sanpei [6k\]: E16
]
;B[ed]BL[599.502]OB[24]C[TomoyaKun [3d\]: tesuji, what did you want people to hear then
Gyre [2d\]: So black wants to let the MC play badly
vagabundo [3d\]: o8
Gyre [2d\]: And then play R8
Persians [1k\]: o8 kill b
Tetriste [1d\]: meh, center was bigger than side
TomoyaKun [3d\]: it's rather confusing in this chat room
Montecchio [1k?\]: that's what MC does
Montecchio [1k?\]: when ahead, blunder until ahead by 0.5 points
JeansebL [4d\]: black screwd up...
Montecchio [1k?\]: then win
Tetriste [1d\]: kill black already
]
;W[mc]WL[2848.37]C[shy [14k?\]: im just pointing out that tesuji is one of the strongest players in this room.
Ph1xi3 [-\]: B is right center is bigger in this trade.
kazdabot [7k\]: not true montecchio. what you describe is typical of aya monte carlo bot. not zen
vagabundo [3d\]: man, white is toying with black
Persians [1k\]: b tenuki
Montecchio [1k?\]: which is why i said, that's what MC does
kazdabot [7k\]: zen has won only 1 game by 0.5 in his last 6 month
neophyte [5k\]: now r8?
AutoAtari [1k\]: if tesuji is so strong then why did he fail to see lower left corner was ko?
kazdabot [7k\]: zen doesn't want to win by 0.5.  26.5 is also ok
tesuji [-\]: because it's not
]
;B[nb]BL[551.007]OB[23]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: maybe it wasn't ko
Tetriste [1d\]: how can mc not see that he wins 100% if he plays o8 or a10
kazdabot [7k\]: unlike aya MC
shy [14k?\]: auto: he refutet the ko line....
vegmandu [3d\]: yes shouldn't b add a move in the lower right.
cyryts [2k\]: w q6 dead?
tesuji [-\]: i'll show you after the game
AutoAtari [1k\]: can you give the sequence?
kazdabot [7k\]: oh wow
shy [14k?\]: its c2 instead e1
tesuji [-\]: what's your ko sequence?
Persians [1k\]: b need r8
tesuji [-\]: i refuted a bunch of them already
]
;W[rm]WL[2819.917]C[kazdabot [7k\]: cs start to hate zen's last moves
neophyte [5k\]: too late now
AutoAtari [1k\]: a2 b1
vegmandu [3d\]: thanks
WackyFuse [6k\]: aw.
qQQp [-\]: finally
vegmandu [3d\]: game over
Tetriste [1d\]: thx zen!
x0000 [1d\]: finally
]
;B[fh]BL[532.204]OB[22]C[Bilapidate [1d?\]: Zen thinks that the center is bigger than the right side kill.
shy [14k?\]: really, people should try to consider the moves more carefully before concluding... 
Tetriste [1d\]: wedge f13
tesuji [-\]: @AutoAtari a2 b1 a4 b2 b3 d1 c2 
Tetriste [1d\]: then kill b
Tetriste [1d\]: (b12)
]
;W[hg]WL[2783.799]C[Tetriste [1d\]: b13*
]
;B[dh]BL[518.453]OB[21]C[Tetriste [1d\]: hum
Gyre [2d\]: @tesuji: nice sequence!
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Once Tromp reduces center sufficiently, the MC tumblers will flip and Zen will go kill right side.
tesuji [-\]: thx :)
Persians [1k\]: .................
lepore [1d\]: s7=pass?
AutoAtari [1k\]: oh I haven't seen you saying that before
vegmandu [3d\]: O18 no way its as big as right side kill.
Tetriste [1d\]: s7 = kill
kazdabot [7k\]: s7 not pass lol
]
;W[bh]WL[2746.204]C[Tetriste [1d\]: why not e12?
]
;B[hh]BL[499.27]OB[20]C[Mysigh [9k\]: f13 ?
polonius [2d?\]: tesuji, nice blog
RayTomes [2d\]: e12 gets squeezed
Tallis13 [13k\]: e11
shy [14k?\]: e12 just squeezed
tesuji [-\]: thanks polonius
]
;W[ih]WL[2714.998]C[polonius [2d?\]: i subscribe to it :)
AutoAtari [1k\]: alright, unlike your earlier comments, that looks like unconditional life
tesuji [-\]: :)
shy [14k?\]: heh, me too
uurtamo [-\]: wow.
Persians [1k\]: ............
qQQp [-\]: 4 corners b lost
]
;B[gg]BL[467.877]OB[19]C[kazdabot [7k\]: that's when u see that human is biased with corners and cpu is right to take the rest of the board :)
]
;W[bm]WL[2672.554]C[RayTomes [2d\]: B C8 looks big to me
RayTomes [2d\]: too late
Mysigh [9k\]: ouch
Tetriste [1d\]: h2
]
;B[mp]BL[456.148]OB[18]C[Mysigh [9k\]: :)
sedgwick [6d?\]: allow s7 too big, black had so many chances to take it...
kazdabot [7k\]: where is the 0.5 point zen search...?  He doesn't search it
reprisal [4d?\]: n17 seemed a golden gift
]
;W[lo]WL[2652.527]C[RayTomes [2d\]: now W has a3 b1 a5 a6 b6 ko
]
;B[hf]BL[453.165]OB[17]C[reprisal [4d?\]: well b needs a monkey jump, stat
shy [14k?\]: point of n4?
]
;W[ds]WL[2636.48]C[Gyre [2d\]: Maybe white knew that black thought white didn't know about R8 :p
polonius [2d?\]: ohh
tesuji [-\]: haha
shy [14k?\]: n4 is useless if b doesnt follow up, isnt it?
panchaohao [4d\]: wow
kazdabot [7k\]: N4 kept sente
Gyre [2d\]: Ouch
Persians [1k\]: h17 not bad
Tetriste [1d\]: its ko now
RayTomes [2d\]: w has ko to connect out
Snap: this is incredible
kazdabot [7k\]: zen wants big win lol
]
;B[bs]BL[422.651]OB[16]C[RayTomes [2d\]: B should have c8 before w b7 
Slogger [1d\]: ko
vagabundo [3d\]: no ko
Montecchio [1k?\]: i think white is alive
shy [14k?\]: d1 pretty obvious tho, since b didnt get c8
]
;W[aq]WL[2614.385]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: without ko
]
;B[as]BL[419.591]OB[15]C[Tetriste [1d\]: yes ko?
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Zen want high probability win
vagabundo [3d\]: b dead...
Persians [1k\]: a5
photonacl [5k\]: w+ 53.5
Montecchio [1k?\]: what if white throw in at a1 first?
sanpei [6k\]: dead
vagabundo [3d\]: g6
photonacl [5k\]: haha
panchaohao [4d\]: then A3
Detroit [10k?\]: 80%
domanic [1k\]: no one see that? tesuji?
]
;W[gn]WL[2587.392]C[RayTomes [2d\]: its bent 4 if don't connect out
Tetriste [1d\]: resign?
ThiGar [4k\]: zen = hal
]
;B[lq]BL[404.545]OB[14]C[Slogger [1d\]: resign time
Naphthalin [9k\]: ray, but bent 4 with 3 outside libs
Tetriste [1d\]: wow
vagabundo [3d\]: time to hit the resign button
Gyre [2d\]: Zen is so mean
kimidori [2d\]: how strong is B?
vagabundo [3d\]: b7 was sente
vagabundo [3d\]: for white
]
;W[kq]WL[2563.72]C[domanic [1k\]: 5d egf
]
;B[mr]BL[402.259]OB[13]C[Gyre [2d\]: Black at least 2 stones stronger than me
vagabundo [3d\]: black didn't see it
Slogger [1d\]: b is around kgs 2d
Tetriste [1d\]: I said it earlier
Gyre [2d\]: Probably much more in slow games
Gyre [2d\]: Zen is just evil like that
joby [9k\]: no, not KGS 2d, EGF 2d
Tetriste [1d\]: h2?
RayTomes [2d\]: no B stronger than KGS 2d
Persians [1k\]: pass
]
;W[fo]WL[2537.567]C[AutoAtari [1k\]: w over 76%
RayTomes [2d\]: KGS 2d cannot win 1 game in 4 against zen even
Outsider [-\]: ....
Slogger [1d\]: he might be egf 2d   his rank on kgs is not higher
kazdabot [7k\]: w close to 80% for cs
]
;B[fp]BL[380.016]OB[12]C[happyberry [8k\]: so there is no hope if black has to take it off?
kimidori [2d\]: egf 2d is about KGS 4d
domanic [1k\]: i agree with raytomes
Tetriste [1d\]: h2
Montecchio [1k?\]: there is no hope for black ever since N6
Gyre [2d\]: Yeah, KGS 4d sounds about right
]
;W[ao]WL[2510.244]C[kazdabot [7k\]: RayTomes, that's a 3d performance
odnihs [-\]: 3d 
]
;B[an]BL[377.107]OB[11]C[Slogger [1d\]: totally false kimidori
TomoyaKun [3d\]: kimidori, the 2 rank difference is true with levels from 10 to 1k
Gyre [2d\]: His playing in the first game was really good
RayTomes [2d\]: agree n6 was bad direction for B
tromp [-\]: i vote c5 for worst move ever
TomoyaKun [3d\]: from dan+ it gets totally random
Slogger [1d\]: exactly
]
;W[bn]WL[2487.964]C[kimidori [2d\]: I agree
domanic [1k\]: but it is seki ? what is this
mongol [?\]: the first game was fun to watch
]
;B[ap]BL[374.072]OB[10]C[qQQp [-\]: At what win rate does tromp resign ? ;-)
kazdabot [7k\]: Tromp spoke lol
AutoAtari [1k\]: haha
kimidori [2d\]: but I'm 1k EGF after all
Tetriste [1d\]: why?
TomoyaKun [3d\]: i'm 1k egf too
Tetriste [1d\]: everyone agreed that c5 was a necessity
Tetriste [1d\]: XD
tromp [-\]: looking for a place to resign now
shy [14k?\]: he meant c5 or c6 i think
polonius [2d?\]: here and now
kimidori [2d\]: and I have some friends who's 2d EGF and 4d KGS as well
shy [14k?\]: because c6 had better options to the outside
]
;W[ig]WL[2452.815]C[TomoyaKun [3d\]: coincidence
RayTomes [2d\]: if N6 at H6 then B had a good game
Montecchio [1k?\]: L4, maybe white tenuki
]
;B[if]BL[364.291]OB[9]C[kimidori [2d\]: well,some can go to 5d,but not necessary
TomoyaKun [3d\]: i have friends who are 1d kgs and 1d egf
Persians [1k\]: h17
polonius [2d?\]: i don't have any friends :(
TomoyaKun [3d\]: or 1k egf and 1d kgs
shy [14k?\]: please, just look at the senseis rank page
Uberdude [2d?\]: i know 3degf 2d kgs
]
;W[ao]WL[2419.387]C[TomoyaKun [3d\]: or 2d egf and 3d kgs
kimidori [2d\]: lol,he might not play many tournaments
]
;B[kp]BL[360.551]OB[8]C[kimidori [2d\]: or not play often on KGS
speedchase [6k\]: senseis rank page is very innacurate
shy [14k?\]: no its not
]
;W[ko]WL[2399.173]C[shy [14k?\]: its a reasonable estimation
]
;B[ap]BL[357.944]OB[7]C[Montecchio [1k?\]: it's more accurate than... nothing at all
shy [14k?\]: much better than "i know a x that is y on kgs"
Gyre [2d\]: Senseis rank page is interesting, but for some feels less accurate than nothing XDDDD
kazdabot [7k\]: 78% wins for w...
speedchase [6k\]: its not even in the same ball park
Gyre [2d\]: At least with nothing you aren't going in with false assumptions
]
;W[hs]WL[2366.143]C[Tetriste [1d\]: I think senseis rank page is outdated...
]
;B[lf]BL[348.885]OB[6]C[unorthodox [9k\]: tromp said he was looking for a place to reign, so I gander w 100%
unorthodox [9k\]: resign*
yoyoma [2d\]: As long as you assume all ranks are +/- 5 stones you'll be ok
Tetriste [1d\]: trade?
Uberdude [2d?\]: learn what accurate means
AutoAtari [1k\]: when did he say that?
]
;W[fs]WL[2346.328]C[Tetriste [1d\]: f1
shy [14k?\]: the senseits page has a broad range of samples, your friends are not a broad sample, i dont see how you could even consider it being less accurate
Persians [1k\]: f1
]
;B[hr]BL[340.228]OB[5]C[AutoAtari [1k\]: oh, he really did
Tetriste [1d\]: j2 -.-
shy [14k?\]: unless you know a 1000 people both irl and on kgs
vagabundo [3d\]: Iwonder if black will even resign
]
;W[ir]WL[2326.677]C[sanpei [6k\]: no eye
yoyoma [2d\]: The *same* person can have different accounts all on KGS with wildly different rankings
speedchase [6k\]: the info behind senseis page is 2-3 people per rank
]
;B[ii]BL[335.908]OB[4]C[yzflow [2d\]: white win
TomoyaKun [3d\]: i want to go sleeping
TomoyaKun [3d\]: pls res black
speedchase [6k\]: somepeople are effected more or less by not playing on a real goban
Naphthalin [9k\]: same for me
RayTomes [2d\]: sensei's rank page says that kgs 1-2d is Japan 9d ... I don't think so
Tetriste [1d\]: tomoya
Naphthalin [9k\]: 4:30 am :/
kazdabot [7k\]: u can tomo
Tetriste [1d\]: you already know the ending -.-
]
;W[hi]WL[2296.44]C[shy [14k?\]: it doesnt..
speedchase [6k\]: ray, that is true
]
;B[ji]BL[333.923]OB[3]C[kazdabot [7k\]: b has absolutely no chance
BigMac [6k?\]: b should resign to not waste computing power
speedchase [6k\]: japan ranks are very weak
Gyre [2d\]: I am still not convinced by that
Gyre [2d\]: Actually
]
;W[kh]WL[2277.049]C[mongol [?\]: how about 5 white stones at top, are they toast
]
;B[jh]BL[318.996]OB[2]C[TomoyaKun [3d\]: ..?
Montecchio [1k?\]: B needs like, 15 more of them to win
shy [14k?\]: ok it does
vagabundo [3d\]: mongol, how about 40+ black stones dead?
shy [14k?\]: something is wrong
TomoyaKun [3d\]: how is k12 good for black?
]
;W[jg]WL[2257.154]
;B[kg]BL[315.736]OB[1]C[TomoyaKun [3d\]: oh
TomoyaKun [3d\]: like that <_<
Persians [1k\]: bug
Tetriste [1d\]: k14 
Tetriste [1d\]: nvm
mongol [?\]: dead is dead
sanpei [6k\]: K14
ThiGar [4k\]: black showing patience
Tetriste [1d\]: g12 
panchaohao [4d\]: -_-
]
;W[gh]WL[2234.024]
;B[jf]BL[600]OB[25]C[funakoshi [1k\]: more like despeartion
Persians [1k\]: bug
]
;W[hh]WL[2219.976]
;B[lh]BL[598.828]OB[24]C[RayTomes [2d\]: yes fun
kazdabot [7k\]: human bug u mean?
sanpei [6k\]: big upper 
Detroit [10k?\]: huge kills starting to show up in prediction
Detroit [10k?\]: http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/CrazyStone/CrazyAnalysis-157.html
Naphthalin [9k\]: maybe he doesn't count :D
AutoAtari [1k\]: wow, almost 90% win
]
;W[ki]WL[2197.545]
;B[kr]BL[595.928]OB[23]C[ThiGar [4k\]: black may rise from the dead
kazdabot [7k\]: yes
happyberry [8k\]: hoping for hash collision or something :)
kazdabot [7k\]: now it's time to sleep guys
Tetriste [1d\]: lollll
speedchase [6k\]: zen has a nasty habit of killing himself
speedchase [6k\]: sometimes in gote even
]
;W[jp]WL[2179.146]
;B[eh]BL[584.917]OB[22]C[Naphthalin [9k\]: well, b already at 10%
lepore [1d\]: one example speedchase?
speedchase [6k\]: game 1 of the series
]
;W[ag]WL[2160.15]C[lepore [1d\]: which move?
speedchase [6k\]: and also it was sort of a joke
Naphthalin [9k\]: gratulations to zen!
gghideki [3k?\]: Thanks
BOThater36 [5d\]: good fight, John
kazdabot [7k\]: gg
tromp [-\]: ok, enough of that:)
kv123: over
Mysigh [9k\]: oh no! Terminator!
Naphthalin [9k\]: and thx tromp for the fights :)
maher139 [4k\]: gg
WackyFuse [6k\]: aww
Suphyph [14k?\]: /O\\
sanpei [6k\]: gg
blackliist: noooo tromp :(
kazdabot [7k\]: Bot are our fathers
Persians [1k\]: thanks
tromp [-\]: it's official
WackyFuse [6k\]: thanks John
qQQp [-\]: Thank you. was nice to watch
UTDEspy [-\]: Thank you for playing tromp
ThiGar [4k\]: very courageaous Trump!
maher139 [4k\]: is tromp a bot?
vegmandu [3d\]: :) 
UTDEspy [-\]: We're looking forward to the rematch!
Ph1xi3 [-\]: tromp: Ye need to take it more easy at the early middle game.
kazdabot [7k\]: thanks a lot for the show
trohde [12k\]: thx John
funakoshi [1k\]: why n6? =(
tromp [-\]: home computers surpassed strong european 2dan level
polonius [2d?\]: before the match started i guessed 3-1 and so it was
hhhh: move out humans here come bits and cubits
Tetriste [1d\]: :D
darrencook [?\]: Thanks for the show, John, Zen team
speedchase [6k\]: tromp you were brave trying to save humanity
tromp [-\]: thanks
polonius [2d?\]: nobody can save humanity now :(
tromp [-\]: think i did well up to c5
oak [4k\]: “I for one welcome our new computer overlords”
Liisa [2d\]: so who is next?
goIngo [-\]: thx for the show, thanks to John and Zen team
BOThater36 [5d\]: tromp is my hero
kitsune01 [20k?\]: isaw a 3d beat the bot earlier 
happyberry [8k\]: well it's not hopeless, humans wrote the programs too :)
Tetriste [1d\]: you're thinking c6 instead of c5?
chohip [8k\]: thx to have done it
akarp [11k?\]: thank you John and Zen19 creators
kazdabot [7k\]: pkunzip is my hero
tesuji [-\]: thanks tromp and Zen team :)
zagzigman [1k\]: tromp, try not to create weak groups
hhhh: liisa you can lose your 1000 euros bet anytime you want
montaigne [?\]: Thanks Tromp and Zen team
Bilapidate [1d?\]: I gonna go attach a shotgun shell to my PC's CPU.  You all do the same.  Put it on a timer which you reset every day.
ThiGar [4k\]: very depressing for humanity
tromp [-\]: i think c5 is where i shld've strengthened my q9 group instead
AutoAtari [1k\]: I for one welcome our new computer overlords
tromp [-\]: we need a new hero to make a big bet
Tetriste [1d\]: you had ko instead of t8 I think
polonius [2d?\]: preferrably lee changho
vegmandu [3d\]: I thought w b2 gave you a big chance.
Ph1xi3 [-\]: q9 was the mistake here in the right.
Bilapidate [1d?\]: Shotgun shell for autoatari too.  No timer
Suphyph [14k?\]: There is no robot yet that can beat me on a real goban.
ThiGar [4k\]: ask big bad wolf
happyberry [8k\]: you and john henry
Montecchio [1k?\]: no bot will EVER consistently beat me at Snakes and Ladders
hhhh: ask lee sedol. he knows something probably
unorthodox [9k\]: actually, suphyph...
gogonuts [5d\]: you did shake things up in game one
RayTomes [2d\]: Tromp, I thought N6 at H6 would have been much better game for you
AutoAtari [1k\]: Suphyph, how about smartrobot?
zagzigman [1k\]: zen wants to say something?\\
funkyj: Does John Connor play Go?
Suphyph [14k?\]: Oh. Smartrobot can place stones?
AutoAtari [1k\]: yes he can
Mysigh [9k\]: lol
Suphyph [14k?\]: uh oh. /O\\
AutoAtari [1k\]: and he's kgs 9d
Mysigh [9k\]: Come play go if you want to live :D
polonius [2d?\]: smartrobot is very smart
BOThater36 [5d\]: that is an easy part, suph
tromp [-\]: thanks for all the kibitz. i'll go read it after a break
Tetriste [1d\]: 0.0
Tetriste [1d\]: thats a lot of kibitz to read
Mysigh [9k\]: thats dedication :D
polonius [2d?\]: you'll regret it tromp
AutoAtari [1k\]: wow tromp you sure are masochistic
BOThater36 [5d\]: you will have a sleepless night, john :-)
unorthodox [9k\]: lol
funakoshi [1k\]: our hero needs a break too, guys^^
timothy [24k?\]: believe me tromp, you dont want to read it ;)
unorthodox [9k\]: I agree with timothy
trohde [12k\]: +1
darrencook [?\]: John, all the good go stuff was over on the paper tiger game... not here ;-)
qQQp [-\]: It is not true. John did a great job
funkyj: When Zen starts writing Go playing programs we are finished!
zagzigman [1k\]: are there still games?
Persians [1k\]: two bet?
Mysigh [9k\]: double or nothing?
Mysigh [9k\]: ^_^
gghideki [3k?\]: Thank you for a great match Tromp and thank you for watching all
Tetriste [1d\]: good question, are there other games tromp?
qQQp [-\]: But I agree, we need another human sum?
tromp [-\]: i'm done with shodan bets now
Tetriste [1d\]: or was it best o 5?
Tetriste [1d\]: okk
gghideki [3k?\]: see you
BOThater36 [5d\]: bye gg
AutoAtari [1k\]: will there be game 5?
Tetriste [1d\]: gg
vegmandu [3d\]: :)
Tetriste [1d\]: seems not
tromp [-\]: no game 5
Mysigh [9k\]: lol
goIngo [-\]: bye hideki!
tromp [-\]: congratulations to my most worthy opponent Zen
AutoAtari [1k\]: it seems Hideki still wanted it
Mysigh [9k\]: you were awesome tromp!
BOThater36 [5d\]: congra both for excellent show
kv123: tromp, what's your level on kgs?
unorthodox [9k\]: [-\]
kv123: 3d/4d/5d?
tromp [-\]: i never had a kgs rank
kv123: oh, I see
tromp [-\]: dont play much
Mysigh [9k\]: guess?
tromp [-\]: guess 3d
Mysigh [9k\]: cool beans
BOThater36 [5d\]: at least 4d
vegmandu [3d\]: do you have an IGS rank of a cyberoro rank?
tromp [-\]: no, dont play elsewhere
Mysigh [9k\]: keep fighting the maching for us!
tromp [-\]: love to watch:)
Mysigh [9k\]: *machine
hhhh: tromp you 2d or 3d egf?
tromp [-\]: actually, i cld have another bet
Ph1xi3 [-\]: tromp: Ye were going on a brake. Take some fresh air you sat there for over 2 hours
tromp [-\]: when will smartphone beat me in a match???
unorthodox [9k\]: long time from now
kv123: no way, you will burn the battery
hhhh: 5 years
BOThater36 [5d\]: no worrh, steven Jobs is gone
unorthodox [9k\]: go programs on phones stink
kv123: tromp, have you ever played with pro?
hugh2 [1d\]: smartphones are improving faster than pcs
tromp [-\]: yes, i think 5 years should do it
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Smartphones rely on computers ;)
kv123: and if so, how many handicaps?
ThiGar [4k\]: smartphones lurking around the carmer also
ThiGar [4k\]: corner*
tromp [-\]: do already beat me soundly on 9x9
tromp [-\]: they
darrencook [?\]: @John How big can the smartphone be? (I'm thinking if it has skype...)
tromp [-\]: smartphones are pocketable
Ph1xi3 [-\]: 9x9 is quite much about beating the crap out of B with komi... It is always a do or die.
tromp [-\]: let's say as big as Galaxy Note
hugh2 [1d\]: also hard to see a 19x19 board on a smartphone screen ;)
Ph1xi3 [-\]: Every single bot is having a rout in which 1 error is false.
tromp [-\]: in 5 years they may have built-in projectors
tromp [-\]: or foldout screen
funkyj: VR glasses
funkyj: with 16000 x 9000 pixel resolution :P
Ph1xi3 [-\]: We don't need such
tromp [-\]: Thanks for all your support. Really appreciate it. And goodnight!
kv123: thanks, bye
BOThater36 [5d\]: bye
qQQp [-\]: bye
ThiGar [4k\]: thx to you, bye
funkyj: tromp is still smarter because he knows when to make the $$ bet and when not to ;)
funkyj: Zen needs a FB fan page!
ErrorProne [3k\]: Why doesn't this game close?
ErrorProne [3k\]: tromp is smarter because he can fix dinner.
])
