(;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]AP[Many Faces of Go version 12.001]
SZ[19]
HA[6]
ST[0]
PB[Mogo]
PW[nutngo]
DT[2009-02-11]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[0.5]
TM[0]
RU[Chinese]
RE[W+Resign]
OT[10x40 byo-yomi]
C[Mogo [-\]: GTP Engine for Mogo (black): MoGo version 3.0.0: I'll \
resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you \
passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some \
stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will \
agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have \
not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play \
until the end :'( (very rare cases)]
CA[UTF-8];B[dd]BL[40]OB[10];B[dj]BL[40]OB[10];B[dp]BL[40]OB[10];B[pd]BL[40]OB[10];B[pj]BL[40]OB[10];B[pp]BL[40]OB[10];W[nc]WL[40]OW[10];B[lc]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[ne]WL[40]OW[10];B[ic]BL[40]OB[10];W[cf]
C[CHOWstyle [3k\]: who's playing this time?]
WL[40]OW[10];B[pf]BL[40]OB[10];W[fq]
C[Mogo [-\]: GTP Engine for Mogo (black): MoGo version 3.0.0: I'll \
resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you \
passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some \
stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will \
agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have \
not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play \
until the end :'( (very rare cases)
chipper [-\]: Same person is playing
chipper [-\]: Li-Chen Chien
CHOWstyle [3k\]: ok thanks
jiva [1k\]: wow
jiva [1k\]: what dan is the player?]
WL[40]OW[10];B[eq]BL[40]OB[10];W[fp]
C[ttonndaa [5k\]: 1p]
WL[40]OW[10];B[dn]BL[40]OB[10];W[nq]
C[Slowdive [10k\]: i hope he wins
Zahlman [1k\]: how many games will they play?
jiva [1k\]: is this mogo hooked up to a supercomputer?
Q161 [19k\]: gogo Li-Chien Chen!!
jiva [1k\]: like deep blue?
jiva [1k\]: they will play more tomorrow from what i understand
brainiaq [3k\]: yes it is a blue gene machine
Rakeliem [1d\]: they don't have good computers for go
sulusepken [6k\]: go mogo]
WL[40]OW[10];B[iq]
C[tontonken [12k\]: nutngo is just a pro account?
tontonken [12k\]: but it's all different players
tontonken [12k\]: right?]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[jp]
C[Slowdive [10k\]: yeah
brainiaq [3k\]: wow b aggressive
jiva [1k\]: good enough to beat pro at 6 stones!!
brainiaq [3k\]: and solid
Slowdive [10k\]: national university of taiwan apparently
brainiaq [3k\]: not afraid of the pro]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ip]BL[40]OB[10];W[io]
C[jiva [1k\]: what if mogo just gives up that stone? ;)
FootofGod [3k\]: r-r-r-rematch?
maszrum [-\]: mogo plays better than yesterday
Cail [2k\]: don't h4, k3 first please]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ho]
C[maszrum [-\]: is it different version?
Cail [2k\]: w k3, sigh]
BL[40]OB[10];W[jq]
C[Jonii [1d\]: ;<]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fo]
C[Jonii [1d\]: Soon bots are better than human players :<
Slowdive [10k\]: :<
Zahlman [1k\]: no]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ep]
C[Jonii [1d\]: 6 handi stones is almost nothing]
WL[40]OW[10];B[eo]BL[40]OB[10];W[dq]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: it will take more breakthroughs of the same magnitude \
as UCT to put them in striking distance, and as we approach that, \
humans will gain experience against strong computers and understand \
how to play against them
jiva [1k\]: i agree joni
jiva [1k\]: what do you mean 6 stone handi is almost nothing though?]
WL[40]OW[10];B[cq]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: and thus bots will be pressured to be more "stable" \
as well, which takes extra smarts]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[er]
C[jiva [1k\]: yeah, but computers will easily pass us up eventually
jiva [1k\]: even though we will be strategically superior for \
many years, the calculation aspect is just too important]
WL[40]OW[10];B[dr]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: i don't think the "4x power = 1 stone" heuristic \
will hold true when approaching pro level
Tayfax [6k\]: agreed
Zahlman [1k\]: and anyway, why shouldn't we expect the learning \
curve to look the same for them as for humans, i.e. much much \
harder to gain the last few stones]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ir]
C[maszrum [-\]: it did in other games brainiaq
jiva [1k\]: i doubt that
maszrum [-\]: why go would be different
jiva [1k\]: people haven't even put the research and effort into \
making a strong program yet
Zahlman [1k\]: "the calculation aspect" is unbelievably vast, \
that's why
brainiaq [3k\]: other games are not like Go]
WL[40]OW[10];B[hr]BL[40]OB[10];W[hp]
C[juhop [-\]: brainiaq i agree it would sound incredible, but with \
chess simillar things were said
brainiaq [3k\]: do you know how this monte carlo simulation works?
jiva [1k\]: you guys are silly to think that computers will not \
pass us up soon
maszrum [-\]: yes
brainiaq [3k\]: you cannot compare how this program works with \
how a chess machine works
Zahlman [1k\]: sure they have, jiva. Don't you know large prizes \
have been offered in the past for strong computer players
maszrum [-\]: why?]
WL[40]OW[10];B[hq]BL[40]OB[10];W[gp]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: because they are completely different
jiva [1k\]: Humans have not put in the teams of computer scientists \
nor made a super computer like they did in chess to beat humans \
yet
maszrum [-\]: main idea is the same
brainiaq [3k\]: no they're not
BrYanwithY [10k\]: look....they're already teaching skynet how \
to play go.....in order to occupy it's time with something constructive, \
so....
maszrum [-\]: brute force all possible moves
jiva [1k\]: if they made a huge project out of it, we would go \
down in no time
BrYanwithY [10k\]: *its time
Jonii [1d\]: Just a while ago I thought that I could give 9 stones \
to best go program ever. Now it seems I would lose on even game \
against this monster :P
brainiaq [3k\]: chess bots use complete min-max search for small \
numbers of moves]
WL[40]OW[10];B[jo]BL[40]OB[10];W[in]
C[jiva [1k\]: all the naysayers thought that humans would never \
lose to chess computers
brainiaq [3k\]: mogo uses a very sparse random search over a huge \
number of moves
mrgrimm [5k\]: i agree with jiva, in the 1970's they made the \
same arguments for chess that you guys are making for GO right \
now
jiva [1k\]: they said we couldn't take a man to the moon
jiva [1k\]: welcome to right now, welcome to the future
mrgrimm [5k\]: they tried to make computers play chess like humans \
play chess
brainiaq [3k\]: it is not the same argument at all
mrgrimm [5k\]: but computers dont think like us]
WL[40]OW[10];B[jr]
C[mrgrimm [5k\]: once they bent thier brains around that idea, they \
made computers do what they do best
maszrum [-\]: go bots use UCT, which is similar to minimax]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[kr]
C[juhop [-\]: it is you that need the argument brainiaq :)
mrgrimm [5k\]: now computers are unstoppable
juhop [-\]: you said that they will not scale up
jiva [1k\]: the "go is different argument" is very shaky
Zahlman [1k\]: jiva, and one day we will make 1024 bit encryption \
useless, too
jiva [1k\]: go is also based on calculation and positional factors
brainiaq [3k\]: I do AI research for a living
BrYanwithY [10k\]: they teach chess programs to play according \
to certain styles and strategies, grim]
WL[40]OW[10];B[is]
C[juhop [-\]: you still need an argument :)
Zahlman [1k\]: it is not a shaky argument at all, if you actually \
understand the magnitude of the numbers in question.]
BL[40]OB[10];W[kq]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: and have programmed both gametree search programs \
and monte carlo methods
brainiaq [3k\]: they are very different
jiva [1k\]: my iphone can almost wipe my butt man, i can shave \
with my i-razor, i can even pour coffee into my phone and it \
heats it up and brews it !! ;)
jiva [1k\]: joking
brainiaq [3k\]: and i just don't see the monte carlo approach \
working well at the higher levels
FootofGod [3k\]: saying they teach chess programs is silly. Computers \
do not think the same, it is difficult to use comarative language \
without being unclear]
WL[40]OW[10];B[go]
C[jiva [1k\]: what is your argument then brainiaq, that it will \
take computers 50 years instead of 15 yeras to pass us up?
Rakeliem [1d\]: I want a robotic pet monkey
brainiaq [3k\]: no
brainiaq [3k\]: my argument is that it will take an entirely different \
method than this bot uses
jiva [1k\]: oh oh
BrYanwithY [10k\]: I really don't think I was unclear, foot
jiva [1k\]: my bad]
BL[40]OB[10];W[qn]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: some sort of insight into the nature of the game
jiva [1k\]: i missed your point entirely braniac
jiva [1k\]: i wouldn't doubt that, but the insight may be gained \
with the help of computer software 
brainiaq [3k\]: the combinatorial explosion of search paths is \
just too high for the random sampling methods to work well
jiva [1k\]: may=will be]
WL[40]OW[10];B[jn]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: okay, here's a concrete example]
BL[40]OB[10];W[im]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: a pro can look about 100 moves ahead (if given \
a decent amount of time)
Q161 [19k\]: brainiaq, is it conceivable with the exponential \
increases in software tech that eventually brute force will be \
viable?
mrgrimm [5k\]: who random samples?
jiva [1k\]: but technology keeps on increasing so fast, we are \
making nanochips from basic molecular carbons
jiva [1k\]: i mean dude
mrgrimm [5k\]: why would you make a computer random sample?
Azami [7k\]: Is f3 dead and was it just for building up influence \
for right side?
juhop [-\]: I remain agnostic asto the limits of monte carlo tree \
search, but I cannot see how one coule reliably just guess how \
far they will go]
WL[40]OW[10];B[jl]
C[jiva [1k\]: i think Q161 has a point
brainiaq [3k\]: and the search tree that the pro thinks about \
most likely contains the best move]
BL[40]OB[10];W[jm]
C[mrgrimm [5k\]: thats an aweful strategy
jiva [1k\]: sorry braniac continue
Jonii [1d\]: mrgrimm, mogo works that way
brainiaq [3k\]: the way this bot works is by RANDOMLY sampling \
100,000 search trees, each of 100 moves
jiva [1k\]: sure, same for chess
Jonii [1d\]: At least I got the impression from this kibitz
brainiaq [3k\]: and then looking for moves that commonly appear \
in outcomes favorable to the bot]
WL[40]OW[10];B[km]
C[jiva [1k\]: well in chess the programs don't randomly select moves]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[kn]
C[mrgrimm [5k\]: random would be retarded, it must have some heuristic \
to direct it
mrgrimm [5k\]: even 100000 samples would be useless
juhop [-\]: it is not that random anymore though, there is increasing \
amount of heuristics everywhere
jiva [1k\]: as we speak right now, bots are making history brainiac
Derigo [19k\]: reminds me of hostadter's 'heat' thing for his \
copycat program...
jiva [1k\]: he means relatively random i guess
weirdchess [11k\]: grimm, the best go computers (including MoGo) \
use a method called monte-carlo searching, which is basically \
extending out hundreds of thousands of random games to evaluate \
different move trees]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ko]BL[40]OB[10];W[ln]
C[Rakeliem [1d\]: nutgo's gonna win
brainiaq [3k\]: to sample enough to find the same moves as a 9D \
pro, I just think it will require like 2^100 random trees
Derigo [19k\]: the idea with it was that the less certain the \
program was in a particular area, the more randomly it would \
behave
brainiaq [3k\]: with is more lines than there are atoms in the \
universe
Derigo [19k\]: seemed kind of a neat way to avoid bias
Rakeliem [1d\]: btw why is he called nutgo?
juhop [-\]: it is sensible to be sceptical, I don't question that
jiva [1k\]: same with in chess brainiaq]
WL[40]OW[10];B[lo]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: not true
brainiaq [3k\]: not true at all
Slowdive [10k\]: not nutgo man
Slowdive [10k\]: nutngo
brainiaq [3k\]: chess pro sees 15 moves
jiva [1k\]: the atoms in universe analogy applies to chess
jiva [1k\]: want the wiki link?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[mo]
C[Slowdive [10k\]: National University of Taiwan
brainiaq [3k\]: computer can do that no problem
juhop [-\]: but one should be sceptical about scepticism too
Rakeliem [1d\]: oh
jiva [1k\]: i am nearly a chess master
brainiaq [3k\]: with a properly pruned min-max gametree
Rakeliem [1d\]: then what's the n
Slowdive [10k\]: TN taiwan
brainiaq [3k\]: plus, first 15 moves of chess are solved
jiva [1k\]: chess pro sees 5 moves deep in 10 different lines \
or 10 moves deep in 5 different lines, or 20 moves deep in 2 \
different lines, all sorts of combinations
brainiaq [3k\]: so is the endgame]
WL[40]OW[10];B[lm]BL[40]OB[10];W[mn]
C[Jonii [1d\]: jiva, I thought there were just 10^50 possible games \
in chess?
Slowdive [10k\]: omg
Slowdive [10k\]: first 15 moves of chess are solved?
jiva [1k\]: wiki chess
brainiaq [3k\]: yes
jiva [1k\]: the atoms in the universe model is there
Slowdive [10k\]: what's the best move? d4?
maszrum [-\]: what do you mean by solved?
jiva [1k\]: well i tend to like d4 ;)]
WL[40]OW[10];B[il]
C[weirdchess [11k\]: first 15 moves of chess are definitely NOT \
solved]
BL[40]OB[10];W[hm]
C[weirdchess [11k\]: as an expert chess player, i can say that
Rakeliem [1d\]: e4
yank [?\]: nutn=National University of Tai-nan, located in Taiwan.
Slowdive [10k\]: oh lol
brainiaq [3k\]: the computer that beat kasparov spent the previous \
year examinging every possible game board over the first 15 moves
jiva [1k\]: chess is still a mystery and humans still understand \
chess much better than comptuers even though we can't beat them
brainiaq [3k\]: and it has all of the results stored in a giant \
hash map
jiva [1k\]: that is not true at all brainiaq
jiva [1k\]: you are not informed correctly
weirdchess [11k\]: not possible
jiva [1k\]: every possible game board?
jiva [1k\]: nope]
WL[40]OW[10];B[gm]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[hl]
C[Slowdive [10k\]: just an opening book no?
Derigo [19k\]: I remember reading that kasparov complained that \
they didn't let him see deep blue's recent games before the match, \
though deep blue got to 'see' his
saharin: black is screewed
jiva [1k\]: shall we do some number crunching here?
Q161 [19k\]: brainiaq, jiva is right
maszrum [-\]: but such results are worthless
Q161 [19k\]: deep blue was programmed with opening theory
SHURATO [6k\]: Black is Koma]
WL[40]OW[10];B[hk]BL[40]OB[10];W[gl]
C[jiva [1k\]: yes, theory not with every possible opening variation
weirdchess [11k\]: at roughly 25 moves per choice, you're looking \
at 25^15 or about 10^21 positions in the first 15 moves - no \
computer has done that much computation
Q161 [19k\]: in fact some of kasparovs opening theory was used \
in its programming
Q161 [19k\]: it didnt rediscover it at all
jiva [1k\]: without endgame tablebases computers also would not \
play the endgames well]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fl]BL[40]OB[10];W[gk]
C[pandanny [5k\]: bg2?
maszrum [-\]: tablebases don't make chess programs much stronger
Zahlman [1k\]: mrgrimm, you might think "random would be retarded, \
even with 100000 samples", but it simply turns out not to be \
the case.
jiva [1k\]: but there are so many heuristics for chess and soon \
go that will be used to enable computers to use their enormous \
calculation powers and database techniques to beat us]
WL[40]OW[10];B[gj]BL[40]OB[10];W[fk]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: okay you're right, i'm sorry, i meant the last \
15 moves are solve
Zahlman [1k\]: random play evaluates positions fairly well, for \
the reason that random bad moves are equally likely for either \
player in the simulation.
Q161 [19k\]: last 15 moves??
brainiaq [3k\]: or more
Q161 [19k\]: thats not a very well defined notion
jiva [1k\]: yeah even completely "random" set of 100000 is better \
than a beginner thinking of 10 samples
weirdchess [11k\]: what are the "last" 15 moves?
Totti10 [6k\]: this happened before
Zahlman [1k\]: maybe not "fairly well", but more like "surprisingly \
well" :)
Q161 [19k\]: the last 15 moves could be in middle game
Q161 [19k\]: in which case, definitely not solved]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fj]BL[40]OB[10];W[ek]
C[jiva [1k\]: i take it brainiaq you don't play much chess?
Q161 [19k\]: yeah i get the same feeling... >.<
Rakeliem [1d\]: what is mogo trying to do
jiva [1k\]: even last 15 moves of chess are not solved
Zahlman [1k\]: looks like it wants to win the semeai
Jonii [1d\]: Lose? :)]
WL[40]OW[10];B[hj]
C[jiva [1k\]: last 15 moves are different depending on position
weirdchess [11k\]: i dunno - black is playing very strangely
tooweak4u [1k\]: trying to make influence to use in the center/
mrgrimm [5k\]: outside territory
mrgrimm [5k\]: er
Slowdive [10k\]: don't they have like 7 piece endgame tablebases \
for chess?
mrgrimm [5k\]: moyo
mrgrimm [5k\]: sorry
jiva [1k\]: we have made  huge breakthroughs with 4-5 piece endgames \
though
tooweak4u [1k\]: its not a moyo
tooweak4u [1k\]: just influence
jiva [1k\]: yeah, but we haven't solved completely all 7 piece \
endgames
weirdchess [11k\]: tablebases are solved for up to 5 pieces i \
believe
mrgrimm [5k\]: ic
Slowdive [10k\]: oh 5
maszrum [-\]: 6 pieces
maszrum [-\]: and some 7]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[pc]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: so what, go is believed to be solved on 7x7 or \
something
brainiaq [3k\]: that is very different
weirdchess [11k\]: up to 5x5 i think]
WL[40]OW[10];B[qc]
C[yank [?\]: Q17 at this timing is really a pro move.
brainiaq [3k\]: yea your'e right 5 pieces is solved]
BL[40]OB[10];W[qd]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: *known* to be solved on 5x5, and I believe 6x6 \
also
Rakeliem [1d\]: chess would be more complicated on 19 x 19
Tokee [5k\]: and I think 6x5 is solved, too =)
jiva [1k\]: 5 piece endgames in chess being solved is comparable \
to 7x7 go being solved
jiva [1k\]: vaguely but usable
jiva [1k\]: somwhat comparable
tooweak4u [1k\]: 6x5 is not real go though :P
Slowdive [10k\]: lol 19x19 chess?
BrYanwithY [10k\]: I solved shogi....from opening move]
WL[40]OW[10];B[qe]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: the problem is, knowing how to solve 7x7 go can't \
help you play yose :P
brainiaq [3k\]: yea exactly
Rakeliem [1d\]: well, capablanca proposed a larger board that \
didn't totally catch on
jiva [1k\]: on 19x19 board chess would be just as challenging \
for us to program computers to beat humans]
BL[40]OB[10];W[rd]
C[weirdchess [11k\]: im curious if you could extend chess to 19x19... \
would humans destroy computers similar to go then?
Slowdive [10k\]: i'd think so
FootofGod [3k\]: Capablanca waas AWESOME!
Tayfax [6k\]: 19x19 chess wouldnt be chess
Tayfax [6k\]: where are the extra pieces coming from?
brainiaq [3k\]: yea that doesn't make sense
Rakeliem [1d\]: probably
Zahlman [1k\]: chess isn't designed to scale like that at all
jiva [1k\]: Also, in chess IBM along with other projects have \
been established, but in go no such intensive efforts have been \
applied]
WL[40]OW[10];B[pb]
C[jiva [1k\]: (to beat humans)
eoe [11k\]: zahlman, there are huge variants of japanese chess
Rakeliem [1d\]: capablanca proposed differently moving pieces
Rakeliem [1d\]: like the archbishop I think?
jiva [1k\]: somewhat true probably weirdchess]
BL[40]OB[10];W[cp]
C[jiva [1k\]: right, combo of bishop and knight and stuff like that
Zahlman [1k\]: yes, but the point is that they are all basically \
new games in the same family
Tayfax [6k\]: well if we make this proposition, "if there were \
a game as complicated then it would be as hard to play" then \
obviously thats true
Rakeliem [1d\]: yea
Jonii [1d\]: Oh :)
Q161 [19k\]: im sure if computers played grandmasters in chess960 \
there would be similar problems to computers in go
Zahlman [1k\]: in go, changing the board size is just changing \
a parameter]
WL[40]OW[10];B[eq]
C[jiva [1k\]: that's right Q161]
BL[40]OB[10];W[oc]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: it's immediately obvious what the new rules are
jiva [1k\]: true
Q161 [19k\]: since the biggest stepping stone for computers is \
intuition
eoe [11k\]: true, but the gameplay changes drastically
Q161 [19k\]: they shine in brute force
Q161 [19k\]: you cant brute force chess960 openings
Tayfax [6k\]: the dynamics of chess would also be different
Zahlman [1k\]: on larger go boards than 19x19?
jiva [1k\]: these discussions are very stimulating, wouldn't you \
say folks?
tooweak4u [1k\]: what is the proper komi on a 5x5 to give white \
a chance to win>
Q161 [19k\]: without approaching the same numerical scale as brute \
forcing go]
WL[40]OW[10];B[rc]
C[tooweak4u [1k\]: ?]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[dq]
C[eoe [11k\]: was thinking smaller zahlman
Zahlman [1k\]: tooweak4u, 25
eoe [11k\]: but sure, larger too
Ten [6d\]: 24,5 is enough
brainiaq [3k\]: the point is not about "brute force," it's whether \
you can prune search trees effectively
tooweak4u [1k\]: ten is right
brainiaq [3k\]: in chess you can
Zahlman [1k\]: well depending on your counting method
mrgrimm [5k\]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_go
brainiaq [3k\]: in go you can't
jiva [1k\]: yes, Capablanca ;)
brainiaq [3k\]: yet
mrgrimm [5k\]: this SAME computer beat 8p
Ten [6d\]: That means, in 5x5 the "fair" komi is 24 points]
WL[40]OW[10];B[do]
C[maszrum [-\]: in go you also can
Q161 [19k\]: right
jiva [1k\]: in chess brute force does not work per say 
mrgrimm [5k\]: on 800 cores
tooweak4u [1k\]: but its played with area scoring not territory \
scoring ten
Q161 [19k\]: what im saying is in chess960 you cant
maszrum [-\]: and it's exactly what mogo does
Q161 [19k\]: so the problem would be the same
jiva [1k\]: algoritms must underscore this technique
mrgrimm [5k\]: thats alreayd getting pretty close to us dude]
BL[40]OB[10];W[re]
C[tooweak4u [1k\]: so white loses by .5 points with 24.5 komi :P
jiva [1k\]: al gore rhythms?
jiva [1k\]: how do you spell ;)
Ten [6d\]: Oh, 25 then
mrgrimm [5k\]: thats only with imporvements on the hardware side
mrgrimm [5k\]: there is still the software side to improve upon
Zahlman [1k\]: wtf is s15
mrgrimm [5k\]: without our lifetimes no human will be able to \
beat a computer in GO
mrgrimm [5k\]: *within
BrYanwithY [10k\]: What is the best a computer has done in an \
even game of Go?
jiva [1k\]: what is chess 960 again?
Jonii [1d\]: zahlman, follow the game]
WL[40]OW[10];B[rf]
C[jiva [1k\]: i thought you meant like chess with 960 squares
BrYanwithY [10k\]: just curious...
jiva [1k\]: oh shoot wow
Jonii [1d\]: It's a ko-threat :P]
BL[40]OB[10];W[cr]
C[jiva [1k\]: oh my god
mrgrimm [5k\]: MoGo already beat 8p
Zahlman [1k\]: oh
jiva [1k\]: did the computer really just own the upper right?
tooweak4u [1k\]: with handicap
BrYanwithY [10k\]: in an even game?
Zahlman [1k\]: you all distracted me
tooweak4u [1k\]: was it 8 or 9 stones?
Q161 [19k\]: chess960 is a random rearrangement of the pieces
Q161 [19k\]: based on a set of rules
Jonii [1d\]: jiva, follow the game :P
Zahlman [1k\]: 6
Q161 [19k\]: fischer played it
brainiaq [3k\]: look, here is the real question:  how many random \
lines do you have to explore for your statistical measures to \
accurately pick out the actual best moves?
weirdchess [11k\]: chess 960 randomizes the 8 pieces on the back \
row - so opening theory goes away
Q161 [19k\]: it basically throws out opening theory
jiva [1k\]: It's been a stumulating conversation though right \
Jonii and Zahlman?]
WL[40]OW[10];B[eq]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: oh, in the other game
Q161 [19k\]: so it all becomes opening "intuition"]
BL[40]OB[10];W[qg]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: brainiaq, we have no good answer to this :)
brainiaq [3k\]: the number of possible lines is far more than \
milliseconds since the big bang (i.e. no computer will ever be \
able to explore them)
Q161 [19k\]: and developing pieces is in early game involves little \
calculation
jiva [1k\]: well that question doesn't apply that well because \
in chess and in go computer programs both use hueristics
jiva [1k\]: sorry i couldn't resist
Zahlman [1k\]: right now we can say "more than 100000, and probably \
a lot more"]
WL[40]OW[10];B[dq]BL[40]OB[10];W[qf]
C[Rakeliem [1d\]: it's statistical intuition...
BrYanwithY [10k\]: Anyone here know...what is the best a computer \
has done in an even game?
Rakeliem [1d\]: aka modelling aka copycating
brainiaq [3k\]: which is why people saying "well the hardware \
just has to get better" is ridiculous
Zahlman [1k\]: bryan, in what ranking system :)
jiva [1k\]: it's not just the hardware that's improving braniac \
and i think we can both agree on that
brainiaq [3k\]: it could very easily be that you have to explore \
more random lines than there are photons in the universe]
WL[40]OW[10];B[pe]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[rg]
C[eoe [11k\]: milliseconds since the big bang seems feasible
mrgrimm [5k\]: is there anyway to turn off chat?
eoe [11k\]: just be patient
mrgrimm [5k\]: lol
mrgrimm [5k\]: *noisey
juhop [-\]: Well, how many combinations have all the pro's studied \
since shusaku?
Rakeliem [1d\]: photons are constantly being created
BrYanwithY [10k\]: I don't care which ranking system... :P
maszrum [-\]: brainiaq: with faster hardware software can read \
further
brainiaq [3k\]: if you converted all matter to photons
Jonii [1d\]: milliseconds since the big bang is less than 10^30 \
:P
maszrum [-\]: and get stronger]
WL[40]OW[10];B[pg]
C[BrYanwithY [10k\]: If the computer has beaten a pro, I'm curiuos \
what the highest level is]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ob]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: some number bigger than 10^100
jiva [1k\]: oh my god did we really whip out the "all matter to \
photons" analogy?
Zahlman [1k\]: bryan, sure you don't care, but one needs to be \
picked to give a meaningful answer
BrYanwithY [10k\]: --in an even game
Rakeliem [1d\]: lol
brainiaq [3k\]: well, the point is, if you turned the whole universe \
into one giant computer, you still couldn't calculate it
BrYanwithY [10k\]: Zahlman - if you have an answer at all, just \
give one, or say you don't know :P
Rakeliem [1d\]: that'd be a lot of dots]
WL[40]OW[10];B[qh]
C[weirdchess [11k\]: i'm still fairly shocked that a computer, with \
only 35 seconds each move, is playing evenly with a professional \
in 6 handicap
Zahlman [1k\]: it beat a pro on 8 stones. so its level is about \
8 stones weaker than a pro.
jiva [1k\]: dude the universe is a computer!!]
BL[40]OB[10];W[rh]
C[BrYanwithY [10k\]: If a computer has beaten a 1p, 2p, 3p...etc
Jonii [1d\]: S11 tesuji
brainiaq [3k\]: clearly, a pro can do the calculation, because \
he can prune the search tree
brainiaq [3k\]: so it can be done
Rakeliem [1d\]: nonono the universe is a casino
eoe [11k\]: brainiaq, that's a pessimistic look on computation
brainiaq [3k\]: i just don't think monte carlo simulations can \
do it
jiva [1k\]: a human can not prune perfectly]
WL[40]OW[10];B[mg]
C[weirdchess [11k\]: mogo took only 55 minutes of thinking when \
he beat the 8p 9 handicap - what if Mogo was allowed a full tournament \
time, like 3-4 hours?
porkdog [7k\]: mogo does love it's moyos
maszrum [-\]: are you sure you understand how mogo works, brainiaq?
Slowdive [10k\]: well with sufficient computational power monte \
carlo would have no problem, wouldn't it?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[cc]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: very sure
Zahlman [1k\]: slowdive, the entire point of the argument is what \
"sufficient" means
jiva [1k\]: the pruning done by go players from 1000 B.C. was \
probably worse than the pruning done by the best go programs \
today.  We stand on the shoulders of giants and computers stand \
on the shoulders of superior parameters
Jonii [1d\]: weirdchess, compuer efficiency usually decreases \
dramatically with increased thinking time :P
maszrum [-\]: and you think it does not pune?
maszrum [-\]: prune*
Slowdive [10k\]: oh right]
WL[40]OW[10];B[cd]BL[40]OB[10];W[dc]
C[Slowdive [10k\]: maybe 10, maybe 50 years
brainiaq [3k\]: yea but "sufficient power" might be more than \
what could theoretically be created if you turned our whole planet \
into one big computer
jiva [1k\]: listen braniac, did you see my point?
eoe [11k\]: our planet is a big computer, silly
Rakeliem [1d\]: why doesn't black r3
weirdchess [11k\]: true jonii - i just think that the extra time \
is probably critical in the most dynamic of positions]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ed]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[bd]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: rake, same reason w doesn't :)
Jonii [1d\]: eoe, hitchikers high five!
jiva [1k\]: the humans that played go 1000 years ago probably \
could not prune as well as mogo does right now.... ponder THAT
Rakeliem [1d\]: that explains a lot?
brainiaq [3k\]: mogo doesn't prune
jiva [1k\]: WTF?
jiva [1k\]: explain prune then
maszrum [-\]: so you don't understand how it works]
WL[40]OW[10];B[be]BL[40]OB[10];W[bc]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: it's a statistical measure
Q161 [19k\]: w dead on bottom?
Jonii [1d\]: jiva, humans 1000 years ago didn't have database \
of thousands of professional games
jiva [1k\]: pruning is the process of selecting moves based on \
parameters and heuristics
cwarren [10k\]: humans 1000 years ago were not significantly dumber \
than we are now
brainiaq [3k\]: no, pruning is choosing which lines to evaluate
porkdog [7k\]: however kgs is getting dumber because of this kibitz
brainiaq [3k\]: you can't look at them all]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ce]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: you have to choose]
BL[40]OB[10];W[fc]
C[telchar [1d\]: of course it prunes
weirdchess [11k\]: Q161 - white's F4 group, c2 and c4 stones are \
dead
Zahlman [1k\]: cwarren, of course not. But they had accumulated \
significantly less go knowledge, and humans use go knowledge \
when they prune, not just intelligence.
BrYanwithY [10k\]: "pruning is choosing which lines to evaluate"....actually \
that makes sense
Q161 [19k\]: is that game over? :(
jiva [1k\]: that is very true...i'm just saying with databases \
and evaluation parameters this mogo plays better than most go \
players alive 1000 years ago -probably plays better]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ec]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: do you really think that's true?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[eb]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: who has any idea what the strength was back then \
in today's terms :S
Karnesun [2d\]: its BOT PLAY?
Rakeliem [1d\]: that's quite false
jiva [1k\]: this mogo chooses which lines it wants to evaluate
Zahlman [1k\]: ... yes, karnesun. welcome to the party.
brainiaq [3k\]: yea i believe it does
Karnesun [2d\]: )]
WL[40]OW[10];B[mj]
C[jiva [1k\]: do you really think it calculates all the variations \
brainiaq
jiva [1k\]: i doubt that
brainiaq [3k\]: no]
BL[40]OB[10];W[fd]
C[jiva [1k\]: there is no way it can
brainiaq [3k\]: it just chooses randomly
jiva [1k\]: oh oh
Rakeliem [1d\]: ew, mogo decreasing his libs
Karnesun [2d\]: what is level this bots?
brainiaq [3k\]: and measures statistics on what went well
jiva [1k\]: randomly? *cough cough* evaluation parameters
BrYanwithY [10k\]: I don't know why, but N10 was pretty.... :P
Zahlman [1k\]: not decreasing
Zahlman [1k\]: failing to increase]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fe]
C[Q161 [19k\]: does w still have a chance in this game?
Zahlman [1k\]: n10 is STONG]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[ge]
C[jiva [1k\]: do you honestly think this program plays randomly \
each game?
Zahlman [1k\]: like only a bot can be
Rakeliem [1d\]: I don't know, probably less than 1d
BrYanwithY [10k\]: More importantly, it was pretty
brainiaq [3k\]: i think computers could beat humans at go
brainiaq [3k\]: i just think it will have more to do with understanding \
the game
jiva [1k\]: ok, we both agree there
jiva [1k\]: well i agree too
jiva [1k\]: but that will happen as well]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ff]
C[weirdchess [11k\]: from the stronger players here - how is mogo \
doing in this game?  looks pretty even to me]
BL[40]OB[10];W[hd]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: i think that mogo will never do it
jiva [1k\]: well the newer versions of moyo certainly have a good \
shot
jiva [1k\]: phew, can we finally end convo on an agreeable tone?
jiva [1k\]: hehe
Archaic [1d\]: what does "we stand on the shoulders of giants, \
and bots stand on the shoulders of superior parameters mean"]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ke]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: I think it will be some decades before we understand \
go well enough to make computers understand it well enough to \
beat us.
Archaic [1d\]: sounds like poetry]
BL[40]OB[10];W[gf]
C[jiva [1k\]: that's just some bullshit i spouted from the top of \
my head
Archaic [1d\]: lol
Archaic [1d\]: interesting
Rakeliem [1d\]: pros=giants?
Zahlman [1k\]: ahem, language
Slowdive [10k\]: yes
jiva [1k\]: What I was trying to say was that the development \
of computer strength is much like the development of human strength \
in go
NemoEimi [?\]: I think in ten years supercomputers will play evenly \
with pros :)
Rakeliem [1d\]: parameters=pruning]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fg]BL[40]OB[10];W[dk]
C[jiva [1k\]: oh my bad
jiva [1k\]: i didn't even realize i sweared, i apologize
NemoEimi [?\]: and five years later, they will be in the business \
of pro-killing :)
Gikku [7k\]: did the bot win the last game with the 6 handi ?
Zahlman [1k\]: swearing is like that :\\
BrYanwithY [10k\]: I bet if there was more money in it, there \
would be much stronger programs....maybe....
eoe [11k\]: jiva: poppycock, please
Zahlman [1k\]: b+2.5 gikku, yes]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ck]
C[jiva [1k\]: maybe decades maybe 1 decade!
Gikku [7k\]: wow OO
Zahlman [1k\]: bryan, there was money in it once
Rakeliem [1d\]: c8
Gikku [7k\]: so now they play without handi ?
BrYanwithY [10k\]: when?
BrYanwithY [10k\]: just curiuos...
Slowdive [10k\]: lol no way]
BL[40]OB[10];W[cl]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: IIRC, a million dollars for a 1d bot, back in the \
90s. but the person offering it died before anyone could succeed.
NemoEimi [?\]: it was for a 1p bot I think
jiva [1k\]: human owns comp in lower right, comp eowns human in \
lower left...]
WL[40]OW[10];B[dl]
C[jiva [1k\]: uppper right corner was mega disaster for comp too?
porkdog [7k\]: comp had 6 stones]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[cj]
C[Q161 [19k\]: does w have a chance still?
Archaic [1d\]: yea h7 group is how you crawl
weirdchess [11k\]: comp sac'd upper right for lower left in a \
ko fight
jiva [1k\]: i'm surprised most of kgs isn't on here watching this \
including higher dans
Archaic [1d\]: h7 group is an example of pro worming]
WL[40]OW[10];B[bk]BL[40]OB[10];W[ej]
C[mmueller [4d?\]: 59%
jiva [1k\]: this worming technique can be used against many computers
jiva [1k\]: this is just a sophosticated example ;)
Rakeliem [1d\]: where is 59%
Archaic [1d\]: it's the computers achilles heal
Archaic [1d\]: yes
jiva [1k\]: i think pro wins this now
Q161 [19k\]: !!]
WL[40]OW[10];B[di]
C[Q161 [19k\]: what about b's center
Archaic [1d\]: i think this 1p 12 yr old understands the computers \
achilles heel]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ei]
C[jiva [1k\]: i've won many games with "worming" vs bots
weirdchess [11k\]: does mogo evaluate its winning chances during \
the game?  where does it do that?  (I've heard that mogo can \
do this)
jiva [1k\]: this is a 12 year old?
jiva [1k\]: probably so weirdchess]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ci]
C[jiva [1k\]: don't know
brainiaq [3k\]: yea but it's own evaluation is tied closely to \
its strength
Ryuk [3k\]: dont tell me w is 12 ill get depressed
jiva [1k\]: human might have played D12?
chipper [-\]: White is 12 years old, yes..
jiva [1k\]: now human can worm in with E12 later :)
Archaic [1d\]: i don't know how a bot can develop a probability
Archaic [1d\]: or a percentage
Ryuk [3k\]: thanks chipper, youre a real pal]
BL[40]OB[10];W[eh]
C[brainiaq [3k\]: i mean, it is essentially randomly sampling the \
space of moves (in a self-guided way) and calculating winning \
percentages for the moves it plays
jiva [1k\]: this is painful to watch
jiva [1k\]: black had all this territory on the left
brainiaq [3k\]: so it kind of has an idea of its winning chances
jiva [1k\]: in a self-guided way?
mmueller [4d?\]: It is the percentage of simulations that are \
wins]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ra]
C[BrYanwithY [10k\]: ah...black is going to be so angry
brainiaq [3k\]: just look up UCT
Slowdive [10k\]: lol wait what
Slowdive [10k\]: can that live?
Archaic [1d\]: ah ic mmuller
jiva [1k\]: the self-guided way = some kind of heuristic = not \
random...?
jiva [1k\]: ahh mm thanks
brainiaq [3k\]: random in the sense of "random variable"]
BL[40]OB[10];W[qb]
C[jiva [1k\]: not even a ko threat
Zahlman [1k\]: a computer will be angry?
brainiaq [3k\]: it's a distribution
jiva [1k\]: what is comp doing?
jiva [1k\]: it's desparate
BrYanwithY [10k\]: Yes, Zahlman
Slowdive [10k\]: computer fail
blackness2 [1d\]: looking for t14?
Zahlman [1k\]: will it destroy all humans?
weirdchess [11k\]: was that the computers way of gaining more \
thinking time?
brainiaq [3k\]: it's sampling hundreds of thousands of possible \
lines
porkdog [7k\]: trying to raise the dead
jiva [1k\]: computer looks like 10 year old here]
WL[40]OW[10];B[rb]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[pa]
C[BrYanwithY [10k\]: not as long as it's playing go
weirdchess [11k\]: effectively using ko threats to take more time \
to think
eoe [11k\]: t16 now
jiva [1k\]: is this computer as strong as the program crazy stones \
that beat the pro with 7 stones?
Rakeliem [1d\]: t14
jiva [1k\]: (how strong was pro that lost to crazy stones again)?
jiva [1k\]: anybody remember
Rakeliem [1d\]: if anything
maszrum [-\]: 4p
Zahlman [1k\]: jiva, I have played old men across a real board \
who "looked like 10 year olds" in this way :(]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fb]BL[40]OB[10];W[gb]
C[tenji01 [1k\]: t14
jiva [1k\]: doh ;)
eoe [11k\]: rake, yes t14 might be more likely to succeed
jiva [1k\]: sorry Zahlman
jiva [1k\]: so sad to hear that ;)]
WL[40]OW[10];B[db]
C[Jonii [1d\]: F18 = bot is losing it]
BL[40]OB[10];W[fa]
C[jiva [1k\]: anybody remember the program crazy stones that just \
beat the pro recently?
jiva [1k\]: F18 is pathetic
porkdog [7k\]: computer going loco now
Zahlman [1k\]: t14 seems to work
jiva [1k\]: let's randomly waste ko thrates
jiva [1k\]: i hope they resign for the computer 
Rakeliem [1d\]: I've been beaten by old men playing weird moves]
WL[40]OW[10];B[cb]
C[Q161 [19k\]: how many more games in this series?
Zahlman [1k\]: surely it can scrounge up enough samples to demonstrate \
that]
BL[40]OB[10];W[bb]
C[jiva [1k\]: that killed the G18 yose for black
mmueller [4d?\]: Crazy Stone and Mogo may be similar in strength
jiva [1k\]: oh i see
mmueller [4d?\]: Also Many Faces and Leela
maszrum [-\]: but crazystone played on 8 cores
Archaic [1d\]: mogo stands for more go
jiva [1k\]: do you remember who crazy stone beat mmueller?
Zahlman [1k\]: hmm, I guess t14 doesn't win semeai :/]
WL[40]OW[10];B[dg]
C[teytaud [?\]:  Martin, you have an opinion on this game ?
Archaic [1d\]: crazy stone well...stands for insanity
mmueller [4d?\]: Aoba 4p
maszrum [-\]: so it's actually much stronger
jiva [1k\]: wow a 4p]
BL[40]OB[10];W[bl]
C[jiva [1k\]: but 6 stones and 7 stone is a huge difference though \
right?
jiva [1k\]: on 7 stones the bot may easily win?
jiva [1k\]: vs this kid...?
porkdog [7k\]: not likely
Slowdive [10k\]: don't underestimate this kid
maszrum [-\]: 1p and 4p is also big difference
Slowdive [10k\]: he's pro
jiva [1k\]: mmeuller you are informed well]
WL[40]OW[10];B[bj]
C[jiva [1k\]: true maszrum
mmueller [4d?\]: This game is harder for Mogo than the other]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[dm]
C[jiva [1k\]: i see
Zahlman [1k\]: 1p vs 4p means almost nothing
Archaic [1d\]: yea
Archaic [1d\]: pros beat each other all the time
Archaic [1d\]: 1ps beat 9ps
Zahlman [1k\]: pro ranks do not correspond to strength, they correspond \
to tournament performance
jiva [1k\]: but it takes 10 years for 1p to reach 9p i heard
Archaic [1d\]: although rarer
weirdchess [11k\]: eh?  black could have connected the D8 stone \
and wo more, no?
mmueller [4d?\]: I am the leader of the Fuego team
yank [?\]: What's the probability now?
weirdchess [11k\]: won*
eoe [11k\]: s11 soon
teytaud [?\]: Martin: if you think that it's already lost for \
mogo, we can resign manually (for the moment I've been told it's \
worth going on)]
WL[40]OW[10];B[fm]
C[JTennent [11k\]: lol nutngo, such a funny name!]
BL[40]OB[10];W[el]
C[Archaic [1d\]: the top go player has a 70% chance of winning i \
heard
jiva [1k\]: oh cool, what is the Fuego team
Archaic [1d\]: i don't know why this is so but who cares
Archaic [1d\]: maybe cause competition is tough
teytaud [?\]: NUTN is the name of the national university of Tainan
porkdog [7k\]: fuego team = guys in thongs playing go
mmueller [4d?\]: We develop the Fuego program
Zahlman [1k\]: archaic, 70% against who?]
WL[40]OW[10];B[pn]
C[Archaic [1d\]: i heard the honinbo]
BL[40]OB[10];W[pm]
C[jiva [1k\]: 70% against who?
Archaic [1d\]: has a 70% chance of winning
jiva [1k\]: oh oops
jiva [1k\]: same question
Archaic [1d\]: i guess against fellow japanese
jiva [1k\]: oh oh
teytaud [?\]: Fuego is probably in the top programs I guess, with \
MoGo, Leela, CrazyStone,
teytaud [?\]: and probably some others
jiva [1k\]: based on what rank?
jiva [1k\]: archaic based on what pro level
JTennent [11k\]: oh. me and my dirty mind. ;D
Archaic [1d\]: i dunno
maszrum [-\]: and it's available for free]
WL[40]OW[10];B[qo]
C[jiva [1k\]: Fruego = ?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[on]
C[maszrum [-\]: yes
Rakeliem [1d\]: fuego means fire
jiva [1k\]: haha
jiva [1k\]: in spanish :)
Gikku [7k\]: Nutngo is a 1dan pro from taiwan right ? OO
mmueller [4d?\]: B can still win]
WL[40]OW[10];B[rn]
C[teytaud [?\]: nutngo is used by various players
Slowdive [10k\]: spanish is awesome because it has upside down \
exclamation marks]
BL[40]OB[10];W[po]
C[jiva [1k\]: as weird as it seems
jiva [1k\]: maybe black has a shot
jiva [1k\]: a pity that the G18 yose was killed and the these \
ko threats wasted though
nutngo3: yes from taiwan]
WL[40]OW[10];B[qp]
C[teytaud [?\]: With various playing nutngo, in 19x19, mogo won \
against a 9P player with 7 handicap stones (one out of two games), \
and against a 1P player with 6 stones handicap this morning]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[rm]
C[teytaud [?\]: Sorry, "with various people playing as nutngo"
jiva [1k\]: i wonder if white will worm into black's center moyo
elder [-\]: bot fight?
Zahlman [1k\]: does the mogo time management code allow using \
byo periods or will it just keep moving within 40 seconds?
egor10257 [16k\]: so, it is about 1p rank?
elder [-\]: lol
Gikku [7k\]: it seems like the computers are improving
teytaud [?\]: this game is played by a 1P player.
jiva [1k\]: oh, thanks teytaud]
WL[40]OW[10];B[qr]
C[Rakeliem [1d\]: shutting white into the corner is sente]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ro]
C[Rakeliem [1d\]: top right
royu [5d\]: b lost for sure now
Zahlman [1k\]: egor, 1d is closer to the mark
Archaic [1d\]: i do n't know why the top player has a 70% winning \
chance..
teytaud [?\]: For other performances by computers: CrazyStone \
won against a 4P player with 7 stones.
jiva [1k\]: i guess that was sente
mmueller [4d?\]: fuego.sourceforge.net
Archaic [1d\]: maybe this is not the case
jiva [1k\]: oh the 5dan speaks ;)
jiva [1k\]: thanks royu for the input
teytaud [?\]: ManyFaces will play soon against a 1P, we don't \
know the handicap yet.]
WL[40]OW[10];B[rp]BL[40]OB[10];W[sn]
C[maszrum [-\]: Zahlman : as far as I know there is a problem with \
GTP protocol, so mogo does not know how many periods it has left
Slowdive [10k\]: did the pros prepare specially for this match?
jiva [1k\]: thanks for info teytaud]
WL[40]OW[10];B[or]
C[eoe [11k\]: maszrum: pretty severe problem :\\
Zahlman [1k\]: wow, that sucks masz :(
teytaud [?\]: in 9x9 to the  best of my knowledge mogo is the \
only program which won against pros (5 Dan pro at best)
jiva [1k\]: i think these programs could have a decent shot beating \
me in an even game!
jiva [1k\]: i'm 2.34 dan aga but only 1kyu on here :)]
BL[40]OB[10];W[qi]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: kgs 1k are stong
Zahlman [1k\]: too pro, even
jiva [1k\]: white will worm in at J13 soon?
Archaic [1d\]: maybe the top player has a 70% winnig chance cause \
of competition]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ph]BL[40]OB[10];W[rj]
C[jiva [1k\]: ahhh, yeah it seems that i've been getting a lot stronger \
in go, but i'm still 1kyu just like last year, anybody else notice \
this effect
royu [5d\]: feels like mogo also has a problem of identifying \
a "sente sequence" and when it stops and total value of the sequence \
vs. single move
Archaic [1d\]: or maybe because of a certain imbalance in the \
game preventing them from winning consistently
Zahlman [1k\]: 1k keep each other out of dan ranks like crabs \
in a bucket
Archaic [1d\]: lol
royu [5d\]: surprise w didn't play j13
Archaic [1d\]: i've emerged from that bucket
jiva [1k\]: seems so zahlman hahahaha, i love your metaphor]
WL[40]OW[10];B[ig]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: a common one
Archaic [1d\]: i stand on your carcass zahlman
royu [5d\]: wth... mogo is listening to kibitz
Zahlman [1k\]: =o
jiva [1k\]: royu your language kind of shot over most of our heads
jiva [1k\]: haha royu
Q161 [19k\]: lolol
elder [-\]: royu they are around us
royu [5d\]: damn skynet
mmueller [4d?\]: B needs a big center to win
Zahlman [1k\]: where is sarah connor
eoe [11k\]: there should be a bot that harnessed the collective \
suggestions of kibitz
Rakeliem [1d\]: it may be an imposter robot
eoe [11k\]: just to see how truly horrible it would be
jiva [1k\]: i though white would play J13 for sure, does this \
mean computer is in the game still?
JTennent [11k\]: lol at carcass standing... 
Rakeliem [1d\]: that's really a kyu]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[jf]
C[Rakeliem [1d\]: in the audience..
Zahlman [1k\]: shape exploitation GET!
mmueller [4d?\]: Fuego says 47% now
jiva [1k\]: i think royu meant because the computer identified \
J13 move
Zahlman [1k\]: mm, for b?
weirdchess [11k\]: j15 for black here?
mmueller [4d?\]: yes]
WL[40]OW[9];B[kf]
C[JTennent [11k\]: double digit kyus represent!
jiva [1k\]: dd kyus in da house
Zahlman [1k\]: k13
Zahlman [1k\]: of course
Archaic [1d\]: cause...
JTennent [11k\]: w00t!
egor10257 [16k\]: what the distance between 1d and 1p?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ml]
C[Gikku [7k\]: if black wins it's the first time a computer wins \
evenly against a pro on 19x19 right ?
jiva [1k\]: 1dan sucks
jiva [1k\]: 1p is very good
weirdchess [11k\]: this isnt even
weirdchess [11k\]: 6 stone handicap
JTennent [11k\]: like 8 or 9
Zahlman [1k\]: probably about 7 or 8
Gikku [7k\]: oh ok sorry ^^"
egor10257 [16k\]: so 1p approximately = 7d?]
WL[40]OW[9];B[nd]BL[40]OB[10];W[od]
C[jiva [1k\]: 1p=about 7dan is what i've heard most often
Archaic [1d\]: noo
jiva [1k\]: but handicaps become exponention at the higher handicaps
Archaic [1d\]: 1p=9d
jiva [1k\]: exponential
Zahlman [1k\]: any such ranks must be taken with a grain of salt
jiva [1k\]: oh my bad archaic
Rakeliem [1d\]: p just means professional]
WL[40]OW[9];B[md]BL[40]OB[10];W[oe]
C[Archaic [1d\]: at least 8d
Rakeliem [1d\]: so..7-9d
jiva [1k\]: although i've seen 7 dan players beat pros on here \
ableit with 2 stone handis
Zahlman [1k\]: jiva, that's nonsense. rankings stay the same distance \
apart for amateur dans, at least in principle.
Rakeliem [1d\]: ..jiva
Q161 [19k\]: wiki says "2700: 7 dan amateur or 1 dan professional."
Zahlman [1k\]: unless you are using the ing ping/duan/chi system \
or whatever it's called
Rakeliem [1d\]: then they are 9d]
WL[40]OW[9];B[mb]BL[40]OB[10];W[pi]
C[Archaic [1d\]: ah
jiva [1k\]: my handicap exponential comment is nonsense?
Jonii [1d\]: Q161, it refers to a different amateur ranking system
LateL: close game?
jiva [1k\]: the higher the handicap the less accurate the distance \
between rank to stones is
Zahlman [1k\]: the whole point is one rank = one handi stone, \
whether kyu or dan.
jiva [1k\]: that's what i've always been told]
WL[40]OW[9];B[oi]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[oj]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: however, the *accuracy* of that measurement can \
vary wildly for a variety of reasons.
Q161 [19k\]: jonii, it doesnt seem so
jiva [1k\]: but as you keep adding stones the extra stones add \
"synergistic" effect  ;)
jiva [1k\]: or some kind of effect
Jonii [1d\]: Some systems have only 1-7d ranks for amateurs, thus \
making 7d strongest of amateurs in the given system]
WL[40]OW[9];B[qj]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: handicap stones may behave somewhat non-linearly, \
but the scale doesn't.
yank [?\]: It is close. But I think b is still leading, for now.]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ri]
C[jiva [1k\]: some kind of whole board effect that makes it exponentially \
tougher when compared to rank (exponential is a hyperbole i guess)
jiva [1k\]: the scale misbehaves as you approach 9 stones
kmtarb [2k\]: some say weakest female pros are about amateur prefecture \
representative level
jiva [1k\]: i know that much
kmtarb [2k\]: in japan
egor10257 [16k\]: 25 handi-stones seems unbeatable
Zahlman [1k\]: it might be the case that 9 stones is too much \
for A vs C if A gives 4 stones to B and B gives 5 stones to C.]
WL[40]OW[9];B[nh]
C[egor10257 [16k\]: even if high dan plays with low kyu
mmueller [4d?\]: W may already be ahead - it seems hard for B \
to get the center
Zahlman [1k\]: But that is the case whether they are strong or \
weak.]
BL[40]OB[10];W[nj]WL[40]OW[9];B[lk]
C[jiva [1k\]: i know what you are saying zahlman, but i''m saying \
that the more stones you add the bigger the harder it is to make \
a fair game out of it
Zahlman [1k\]: egor, very high handicaps depend probably more \
on black's idiocy than white's cleverness. If you can defend \
a 25 stone minefield, then you have learned something.
jiva [1k\]: i guess idealy the ranks would be tweaked to prevent \
that
jiva [1k\]: and that's what you're saying zahlman that the ranks \
are tweaked to approximate handicap stones, but it's hard]
BL[40]OB[10];W[mk]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: noone has a good solution to "the ranking/rating \
problem", or we would be using it
jiva [1k\]: so i'll shut up then ;)
chipper [-\]: k13 
jiva [1k\]: ok, you're correct zahl]
WL[40]OW[9];B[mi]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: well, I do think about such things an awful lot. \
:)
jiva [1k\]: haha
jiva [1k\]: don't all of us go players ;)
sakkie [3k\]: nah]
BL[40]OB[10];W[bn]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: probably most of us ^^
jiva [1k\]: i've been wondering why it's so hard for me to get \
to 1dan on kgs lately when my AGA has been steadily rising
jiva [1k\]: and i have been doing life and death and getting stronger
jiva [1k\]: but my kgs just stays the same
jiva [1k\]: maybe too much blitz ;)
royu [5d\]: SE cleary biased towards fellow binary brother]
WL[40]OW[9];B[sd]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[sf]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: it's because you lose your games
jiva [1k\]: hahaha, royu ;)
jiva [1k\]: "binary brother" sounds so cool
Zahlman [1k\]: the same happens to me
Q161 [19k\]: alliteration
jiva [1k\]: because i lose my games you say
jiva [1k\]: interesting theory !!]
WL[40]OW[9];B[na]
C[jiva [1k\]: hah ;)]
BL[40]OB[10];W[me]
C[NemoEimi [?\]: If I did not lose any games, I would be ranked \
much higher too :(
jiva [1k\]: you guys are too much 
jiva [1k\]: ;)
Jonii [1d\]: KGS dan players are simply too awesome
jiva [1k\]: YES Jonii that's right ;)
telchar [1d\]: Jonii speaks the truth]
WL[40]OW[9];B[kb]
C[jiva [1k\]: easy for fellow dan players to agree huh?
jiva [1k\]: easy to call oneself awesome?
jiva [1k\]: haha
Archaic [1d\]: although 1k is one step away]
BL[40]OB[10];W[sb]
C[Archaic [1d\]: but it's a milestone apart
jiva [1k\]: awww, thanks archaic
jiva [1k\]: doh
weirdchess [11k\]: now mogo is just confused... this is sad to \
watch; i had higher hopes for the computer
Archaic [1d\]: lol jiva]
WL[40]OW[9];B[oa]
C[Archaic [1d\]: i buddy u
Archaic [1d\]: cause u are funny]
BL[40]OB[10];W[bp]
C[eoe [11k\]: t16, finally
mmueller [4d?\]: actually, B still OK, since this corner is semedori
Archaic [1d\]: ?]
WL[40]OW[9];B[mm]BL[40]OB[10];W[nm]
C[Archaic [1d\]: use english
Archaic [1d\]: the international language
JTennent [11k\]: what's the best way to improve quickly?
LSF23 [5k?\]: semedori is english
mmueller [4d?\]: w must capture b stones
Jonii [1d\]: JTennent, play games]
WL[40]OW[9];B[nk]
C[JTennent [11k\]: I seem to get better when i play less..]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[ok]
C[Jonii [1d\]: Play more :P]
WL[40]OW[9];B[ll]BL[40]OB[10];W[nl]
C[Gikku [7k\]: isn't B2 big?]
WL[40]OW[9];B[lr]
C[JTennent [11k\]: I know, I shouldnt play ranked games at 3 in \
the morning! lol
Jonii [1d\]: You're under illusion of being good player when you \
don't need to face the truth over and over again
weirdchess [11k\]: isnt j14 big?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[mr]
C[Jonii [1d\]: J12 seems more interesting... Dunno
LSF23 [5k?\]: j14>b2
royu [5d\]: i think b has definitely not been able to win this \
game for some time]
WL[40]OW[9];B[lq]
C[mmueller [4d?\]: m2 cool]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ks]
C[royu [5d\]: blunder by mogo]
WL[40]OW[9];B[mq]BL[40]OB[10];W[nr]
C[LSF23 [5k?\]: computer blinders??
Archaic [1d\]: computer dum dum
mmueller [4d?\]: oops]
WL[40]OW[9];B[oq]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[np]
C[Archaic [1d\]: computer knows its lost
yank [?\]: Now w is winning.
Archaic [1d\]: so it makes last ditch effort
Slowdive [10k\]: but no resign?
LSF23 [5k?\]: aham, clever computer
Archaic [1d\]: one suggestion mmuller
Archaic [1d\]: try to program a little pride into the computer]
WL[40]OW[9];B[if]
C[Allar [13k\]: lol look at SE :)
Archaic [1d\]: and if its losing make it lose by as little as \
possible]
BL[40]OB[10];W[eg]
C[eoe [11k\]: where's the pride in that
Archaic [1d\]: instead of trying to go for all-out last ditch \
efforts
Jonii [1d\]: SE is obviously biased
jungle [1d\]: baised
maxoux [5k\]: whats this event all about?
maszrum [-\]: it makes programs weaker archaic]
WL[40]OW[9];B[df]
C[Archaic [1d\]: cause it wastes processing power?
LSF23 [5k?\]: SE is sympatic to his buddy]
BL[40]OB[10];W[bq]
C[Archaic [1d\]: in doing so?
JTennent [11k\]: the future of skynet
mmueller [4d?\]: still close]
WL[40]OW[9];B[br]BL[40]OB[10];W[ar]
C[Archaic [1d\]: if u try to put some pride into teh bot
jungle [1d\]: t3h
Archaic [1d\]: i guess if u make it try lose by as little as possible...
yank [?\]: Now 45%?
Archaic [1d\]: t3h]
WL[40]OW[9];B[cs]
C[as12: w k15]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ef]
C[NemoEimi [?\]: leela claims black is ahead
Archaic [1d\]: well i dun really see how it makes the bot weaker]
WL[40]OW[9];B[gg]
C[Archaic [1d\]: it might waste a little more effort trying to gain \
that close win]
BL[40]OB[10]
;W[ee]
C[Archaic [1d\]: but it saves face
mmueller [4d?\]: Fuego still has 52% for Mogo, but it does not \
evaluate the top right too well
JTennent [11k\]: w looks to be kickin butt now.
NemoEimi [?\]: leela says 57 percent for black]
WL[40]OW[9];B[nf]
C[Allar [13k\]: bots supporting each other :p
maxoux [5k\]: both bots?
brainiaq [3k\]: have you done evaluations on that prediction heuristic \
on pro games?
Archaic [1d\]: why doesn't it evaluate tight positions well
Archaic [1d\]: that should be its strong point]
BL[40]OB[10];W[bf]
C[mmueller [4d?\]: now after W cut eval went down to 45%
mmueller [4d?\]: B lost now
Archaic [1d\]: i guess it can't read everything out in those tight \
positions]
WL[40]OW[8];B[bg]BL[40]OB[10];W[de]
C[Archaic [1d\]: and these small corner positions are more confusing
Archaic [1d\]: than normal moyo building
Archaic [1d\]: in the center
LSF23 [5k?\]: what is the bot doing
weirdchess [11k\]: this is just pathetic
Archaic [1d\]: see...
Archaic [1d\]: this is why you must program the bot to save face
jungle [1d\]: Saladin would play k10
brainiaq [3k\]: mmueller have you used Fuego's win rate heuristic \
to predict outcomes of pro games?]
WL[40]OW[8];B[cg]
C[TonyTiger [2d\]: who is white? a pro?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[ae]
C[maszrum [-\]: now mogo lost
Gikku [7k\]: ok... i'm 7k.. but even i saw the danger there =S
mmueller [4d?\]: no
NemoEimi [?\]: yes, mogo lost now
maszrum [-\]: but it was not an easy win for w
Gikku [7k\]: it's over now
Karnesun [2d\]: (
jungle [1d\]: )
Jonii [1d\]: SE still supports b :)
Karnesun [2d\]: LoL
maxoux [5k\]: are they both bots?]
WL[40]OW[8];B[js]BL[40]OB[10];W[lp]
C[Q161 [19k\]: no
Archaic [1d\]: why would u want to do that brainiac
Archaic [1d\]: sometimes a win isn't the most important
Archaic [1d\]: if u are losing saving face is
Archaic [1d\]: it's an asian tradition
brainiaq [3k\]: it would be a good measure of the heuristic]
WL[40]OW[8];B[ls]BL[40]OB[10]
;W[kp]
C[Gikku [7k\]: what do you mean saving face?
Archaic [1d\]: lol
LSF23 [5k?\]: bot wsating ko threts
Archaic [1d\]: meaning save one's reputation
mmueller [4d?\]: yes
Gikku [7k\]: oh oki sorry x.x
egor10257 [16k\]: and how to save face in go? :)]
WL[40]OW[8];B[le]
C[jungle [1d\]: CROISES EN VUE]
BL[40]OB[10];W[sc]
C[Archaic [1d\]: instead of deeming a win as all important
Archaic [1d\]: try to lose by as little as possible
Archaic [1d\]: if you know ur gonna lose
Archaic [1d\]: which mogo doesn't nkow how to do save face
jungle [1d\]: flood
royu [5d\]: w kind of played orthodox lines ... what if w played \
some uncommon beginning moves?
egor10257 [16k\]: so resignation doesnt save face?
LSF23 [5k?\]: you save your face with making EVERYTHINK possible \
to win :)]
WL[40]OW[8];B[ao]
C[maszrum [-\]: who cares if mogo lost by 5 points or by resignation?]
BL[40]OB[10];W[cn]
C[Gikku [7k\]: i acrually think that it incressing your reputation \
better if you know when you lose and admit you can't win.
CHOWstyle [3k\]: a5 weird..
Gikku [7k\]: acctually*
caleb2 [1k\]: yup
egor10257 [16k\]: Gikku, +1
Gikku [7k\]: actually*(damnit keyboard @@)]
WL[40]OW[8];B[co]BL[40]OB[10];W[bo]
C[Zahlman [1k\]: a5 = wat
egor10257 [16k\]: if you know that you will lose - just resign \
- dont bore the partner.
Archaic [1d\]: well yea i guess another way to look at saving \
face
Archaic [1d\]: is by purposely trying everything possible when \
u know ur gonna lose
Archaic [1d\]: it's what pros do sometimes (getting large groups \
captured as a last ditch effort)
Archaic [1d\]: but...beginners will see it as weakness but those \
who know better possibly not 
Gikku [7k\]: if i win after not admiting that i lost only because \
my opponant got tierd of my trying i actually feel really bad.
NemoEimi [?\]: congratulations to the pro :)
jungle [1d\]: noob bot
Archaic [1d\]: but it's better for the general audience
Archaic [1d\]: anyhow]
WL[40]OW[8])
