(;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]AP[Many Faces of Go version 12.001]
SZ[9]
HA[0]
ST[0]
PB[Mogo]
PW[nutngo]
DT[2009-02-13]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[7.5]
TM[3000]
RU[Chinese]
RE[W+Resign]
C[Mogo [-\]: GTP Engine for Mogo (black): MoGo version 3.0.0: I'll \
resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you \
passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some \
stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will \
agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have \
not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play \
until the end :'( (very rare cases)]
CA[UTF-8];B[ee]BL[2999.544];W[ge]WL[2990.331];B[gf]BL[2999.329];W[ce]WL[2988.554];B[eg]BL[2999.124];W[hf]WL[2983.975];B[dc]BL[2998.948];W[cc]
C[dionisio [9k\]: wow fast
anicca [1d?\]: poor mogo
calbonga [13k\]: fast opening
calbonga [13k\]: didn't even get to see it
chipper [-\]: Well that's why they created the < arrows :)
cheetos: h4 high pro dan move
calbonga [13k\]: b already made a good shape 
alexanro [6k\]: the opening: b E5, w G5, b G4, w C5, b E3, w H4, \
b D7, w C7
weirdchess [10k\]: i think mogo should get 7 handicap stones, \
like the 19x19 games.  Clearly not fair otherwise
heegaard [3k\]: as w it is stroooong
calbonga [13k\]: Has Mogo every played on a 19x19 board on KGS?
calbonga [13k\]: ever*
cheetos: lots of times
slinky [-\]: duh
chipper [-\]: Please look at Mogo profile calbonga
weirdchess [10k\]: yeah definitely - its played about 10 19x19 \
games over the past few days
chipper [-\]: You can look at nutngo's profile also, to see the \
games easier
calbonga [13k\]: I see
Mogo [-\]: GTP Engine for Mogo (black): MoGo version 3.0.0: I'll \
resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you \
passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some \
stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will \
agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have \
not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play \
until the end :'( (very rare cases)
JpKitten [4k\]: What a weird game so far
JpKitten [4k\]: oO
TarasBob [6k\]: I cant believe mogo beat a pro with 7 stones
calbonga [13k\]: I'm foreshadowing and it looks like a good game \
for both
slinky [-\]: white wins
calbonga [13k\]: wel so far b has only tooken up the centre
Troff [?\]: mogo would be suprisingly strong if it had a 5-6d \
ama coach who was allowed to change one or two of it's moves \
per game, it always seems to miss a critical spot
bourbaki [?\]: well i for one am going to welcome our robot overlords
Shadowrun [10k\]: maybe mogo fell asleep after the fast opening
gryn [2d?\]: troff i think i'd be surprisingly strong too if i \
had such a coach :P
bourbaki [?\]: i'm really surprised that there are this many variations \
on a 9x9 board]
WL[2980.271]
;B[cb]
C[bourbaki [?\]: i'm also a little surprised that it took that long \
to come up with a hane]
BL[2458];W[dd]
C[kurikuri [2k\]: atari?
kurikuri [2k\]: does black want to get c3 first?
Shadowrun [10k\]: ask him
alexanro [6k\]: full triangles rule
gryn [2d?\]: black never wants anything, it's a monte-carlo robot
Shana [2d\]: i think black wants to play b7 xD
Nicl22 [7k\]: I don't think black can tenuki here
JpKitten [4k\]: White is fast :o
gryn [2d?\]: black should not play any of the 1-1 points
Shana [2d\]: take out the not and capitalize the should
kurikuri [2k\]: what is the full triangle rule?
bourbaki [?\]: i wonder if mogo searches them
Nicl22 [7k\]: I think there's some sense in which the bot "wants" \
to play something
gryn [2d?\]: black SHOULD play any of the 1-1 points!?
alexanro [6k\]: kurikuri: full triangles rock the socks :)
Nicl22 [7k\]: as in the move that is currently at the top of it's \
list
kurikuri [2k\]: really?
kurikuri [2k\]: but b7 shows up in a few joseki
alexanro [6k\]: kurikuri: I think so :)
kurikuri [2k\]: I thought it was a good move
gryn [2d?\]: follow the ABC rule here, if the next moves are B7 \
B6 C6, then obviously black should just play C6 directly.
Nicl22 [7k\]: it would be nice if we could see
Nicl22 [7k\]: what move mogo is contemplating
Shadowrun [10k\]: so if u wanna play like a pro than hane every \
move
Shadowrun [10k\]: ^^]
WL[2936.343];B[ed]BL[2242.589];W[db]
C[Shana [2d\]: oh?
Nicl22 [7k\]: white has played 3 moves that were not hane
calbonga [13k\]: I'm trying to figure out why b played e3 on move \
5, can anyone help me
Shana [2d\]: hane is for losers, they are diagonal
calbonga [13k\]: was it just for good shape?
gryn [2d?\]: e3 is good shape
calbonga [13k\]: of
calbonga [13k\]: ok
calbonga [13k\]: I knew that
Nicl22 [7k\]: black played e3 because after several thousand simulations \
black e3 showed the highest probability of winning
azblueeyes [14k\]: i wonder if mogo hates those corner geometries \
as much as i do?
miago [1d\]: sure, and he loves pizza and bear
calbonga [13k\]: why d7
calbonga [13k\]: ?
miago [1d\]: beer
calbonga [13k\]: on move 7
Nicl22 [7k\]: E6 :S
laohouzi [14k\]: At this rate, mogo will lose on time.
Nicl22 [7k\]: calbonga because after several thousand simulations \
d7 showed the highest probability of winning?:p
calbonga [13k\]: ugh
calbonga [13k\]: can't get a straight answer from anyone anymore \
these days
calbonga [13k\]: hmm
azndemon [9k?\]: naw that was pretty straight forward
saemj [?\]: it is a computer playing, that was a straight answer
calbonga [13k\]: taking the corner I guess
mita [8k\]: i wanna see mogo vs nutngo on 19x19
alexanro [6k\]: what should black do now? rescue with E7?
Nicl22 [7k\]: I can think of two moves
Nicl22 [7k\]: E7 or E8]
WL[2932.74];B[ec]
C[alexanro [6k\]: how about C4 or C3?
gryn [2d?\]: oh come on mogo you have to e7
Nicl22 [7k\]: disaster
gryn [2d?\]: there we go :P
alexanro [6k\]: :)
Nicl22 [7k\]: but isn't white ahead if he makes territory on both \
sides
gryn [2d?\]: how long was that 4 minutes to move out of atari?]
BL[2018.377];W[bb]
C[manofsteel [12k?\]: e8 i think
Nicl22 [7k\]: b2!
alexanro [6k\]: b G7 or C3?
heegaard [3k\]: h6?
gryn [2d?\]: alex,i wagere mogo will play neither.
manofsteel [12k?\]: c3
gryn [2d?\]: wager*
alexanro [6k\]: gryn: ok, thanks. :) Which canidates do you have \
for moves?
dutch2dan [3d?\]: h6?
calbonga [13k\]: yeah, c3
zheng [6k\]: who is nutngo?
alexanro [6k\]: *candidates
TarasBob [6k\]: G7 
gryn [2d?\]: i like the resign button for black :)
Shadowrun [10k\]: why does mogo not get 50 min for the 19^2 games?
gryn [2d?\]: (to be honest)
alexanro [6k\]: dutch2dan: h6, in order to prevent a too good \
shape for white?
Nicl22 [7k\]: h6
Nicl22 [7k\]: is this game with komi
Nicl22 [7k\]: ?
dutch2dan [3d?\]: bbw... any suggestions?]
WL[2888.033];B[gg]BL[1835.209];W[gc]
C[mita [8k\]: black look lost
mita [8k\]: i suggest res
manofsteel [12k?\]: yea
Nicl22 [7k\]: h6 stronger move
Nicl22 [7k\]: -.-
Troff [?\]: C6 next move
stanleytou: c3
azndemon [9k?\]: i like c3
manofsteel [12k?\]: me 2
gryn [2d?\]: i wish the pro would take longer, then i wouldn't \
be so mad at mogo.
Nicl22 [7k\]: b4
youth [4k\]: well the pro can think during mogo's time
JpKitten [4k\]: lol
mita [8k\]: mogo is run on a cheap computer
JpKitten [4k\]: mogo is a silly willy
mita [8k\]: 100 mhz
gryn [2d?\]: yeah but apparently not the other way around
calbonga [13k\]: you think b can make trouble around white's right \
territory?
gryn [2d?\]: i feel like i'm watching a graphic demo for a 386 \
running on a 286.
TarasBob [6k\]: What computer are they using?
JpKitten [4k\]: Lotusbot's are strong too >>
Shadowrun [10k\]: i think the pro exploited a weakness in mogos \
opening repertoire
youth [4k\]: I just think they should set the match time to 20 \
minutes SD
youth [4k\]: of course mogo is going to use the time it is given
tadanobu [10k\]: 640 CPU of a huygens cluster, or the like]
WL[2885.213];B[eb]BL[1675.362];W[hg]
C[heegaard [3k\]: e3 was too loose imo
tadanobu [10k\]: ( not exactly cheap of slow )
calbonga [13k\]: their 19x19 games are 40 minutes and these are \
50min
heegaard [3k\]: should attack g5
alexanro [6k\]: Mogo on my computer says black E4
phalanx [2k\]: i wonder how much pro is getting paid for this \
game
JpKitten [4k\]: how do you know? =/
calbonga [13k\]: f6?
tadanobu [10k\]: yes, playiing with no handy (even on 9x9) needs \
a lot of computing for mogo. 19x19 with 6 to 9 stones is totally \
different
Q161 [18k\]: what ranking on nutngo?
gryn [2d?\]: totally is handi, time-induced boredom
Nicl22 [7k\]: 9p
Q161 [18k\]: O_o
Q161 [18k\]: wow]
WL[2881.239]
;B[bd]BL[1530.6];W[cd]
C[calbonga [13k\]: never thought of that move..
tadanobu [10k\]: see nutngo info :)
Nicl22 [7k\]: Why are they playing H6?
calbonga [13k\]: 2 more games tonight
Nicl22 [7k\]: H9 is easy win?
Nicl22 [7k\]: for mogo?
gryn [2d?\]: nic, aren't?
gryn [2d?\]: because it doesn't do anything anymore?
Nicl22 [7k\]: I mean
Nicl22 [7k\]: why are these two guys going to play 6 handicaps
tromp [-\]: c3
Nicl22 [7k\]: on 19x19
gryn [2d?\]: oh sry
Nicl22 [7k\]: doesn't mogo have enough trouble with 9 stones?
seabear [3k\]: how much is white getting for this game?
tromp [-\]: b will prolly screw p with a move like b5
gryn [2d?\]: eh, it's all exhibition
seabear [3k\]: no $]
WL[2876.845];B[hd]BL[1390.967];W[gd]
C[gryn [2d?\]: hah
Nicl22 [7k\]: he played h6 anyway
Nicl22 [7k\]: lol
Nicl22 [7k\]:  it
Nicl22 [7k\]: it played h6 anyway
Nicl22 [7k\]: :P
zheng [6k\]: te
mita [8k\]: H6 doesn't do anything
gryn [2d?\]: mogo likes to play moves that it doesn't think cause \
the game to be lost, but have alot of moves that cause the game \
to be won, i feel.
freegame [-\]: what system is Mogo running on now ?
Shadowrun [10k\]: on 19x19 mogo only gets 10x 40s
kurikuri [2k\]: I think everyone likes those moves
Shadowrun [10k\]: not 40min
mita [8k\]: i like 40 sec byo-yomi]
WL[2873.642];B[hc]BL[1269.066];W[hb]
C[j000 [1k\]: well, with 60 *possible* moves, statistically white \
may not make the *only* move are 
gryn [2d?\]: yeah but that's not how you do game tree searches
mita [8k\]: W+res
Shadowrun [10k\]: but if it needs like 30 min on a 9x9 for 12 \
moves - how can it be equally strong with 40 sec?
calbonga [13k\]: I can't find how b can survive
mita [8k\]: mogo is a program, shouldn't need a lot of time
Q161 [18k\]: thats exactly what a program needs
mita [8k\]: the byo-yomi recharges time after each move
lolstarz [3k\]: go is a game of vast possibilities, so of course \
it needs time
Nicl22 [7k\]: in fact, computers improve more quickly than humans \
with time]
WL[2868.98];B[be]BL[1158.621];W[cf]
C[gryn [2d?\]: not for forever, moore's law isn't a universal constant
Nicl22 [7k\]: resign
mita [8k\]: look at nutngo (human) doesn't need a lot of time
tadanobu [10k\]: ( if you give something like 100 hours for mogo, \
for it to be real strong on a 19x19, will a human player will \
wait so long ? )
alexanro [6k\]: mita: the people running mogo can choose exactly \
how long time it should think
calbonga [13k\]: i doubt it
Shadowrun [10k\]: he thinks during black s time
TarasBob [6k\]: why did mogo play H6?
miago [1d\]: actually the strength does not increase a lot if \
you double the thinking time]
WL[2860.814];B[da]BL[1062.095];W[bf]
C[mita [8k\]: miago is right
Q161 [18k\]: its not a linear increase but its still there
calbonga [13k\]: I'm confused to why Mogo played h7 and why it \
played b5 when it is obviously going to die
naturesway [1d\]: this game is over
Nicl22 [7k\]: because after thousands of simulations those moves \
gave the highest probability of winning
mita [8k\]: mogo was hoping for nutgo to ignore the move
TarasBob [6k\]: WHY did those moves give the highest probability \
of winning?]
WL[2857.393]
;B[bc]BL[970.598];W[ab]
C[odbira [3k\]: "the clamshells are heavy today"
calbonga [13k\]: I guess it wanted to be daring since it know \
it'd lose anyways
Nicl22 [7k\]: because there's a lot of chances for white to screw \
up
gryn [2d?\]: usually because they have the highest aji
tromp [-\]: is this a replay?
lolstarz [3k\]: no, live
naturesway [1d\]: black trying to kill
Shadowrun [10k\]: nicl22 - do you just press CTRL-V on any of \
these questions?
tadanobu [10k\]: even if they rely on something stupid from the \
opponent, if it is the ONLY combination that gives advantage \
(gaining just 2 points in a good yose is not enough)... mogo \
MUST try these.
Nicl22 [7k\]: nope
tromp [-\]: it looks exactly like a game i watched yesterday or \
the day before
mita [8k\]: Mogo should just go C2
cheetos: does mogo always employ the same tactic as black?
tadanobu [10k\]: usually, Mogo will resign after these silly moves
miago [1d\]: all these moves delay the loss for mogo. that is \
the only reason they are played. if this occurs, you know the \
computer is in trouble
cheetos: extremely influence based?
naturesway [1d\]: b9
Bonushand [9k\]: how does mogo not read out this easy play>
Nicl22 [7k\]: ?
gryn [2d?\]: because mogo doesn't read]
WL[2853.92];B[gb]BL[887.679];W[fb]
C[Nicl22 [7k\]: I have a lot of trouble finding black's next move
Nicl22 [7k\]: I donh't finjd it easy at all
TarasBob [6k\]: the human spent 2.5 minutes
alexanro [6k\]: Bonushand: it's based on a _lot_ of reading instead \
of exact and deep reading
freegame [-\]: pro's are not human :P
naturesway [1d\]: computers will never overcome human's
naturesway [1d\]: ever 
naturesway [1d\]: in go
Nicl22 [7k\]: never is too strong a word 
gryn [2d?\]: all pro's have vampirism
knupsi [3d\]: g8???
JpKitten [4k\]: Thye will :S >> Apocolypse
lolstarz [3k\]: remember that the pro can use the time that mogo \
is thinking to read as well
tadanobu [10k\]: never ever is a long time :)
bourbaki [?\]: if it's a matter of computation, then they just \
simply will
TarasBob [6k\]: why woundnt computers overcome humans?
bourbaki [?\]: and in fact it is a matter of computation
mmueller [4d?\]: so far, same game as on day 1. Sad.
naturesway [1d\]: because of creativity aspect
naturesway [1d\]: of the game]
WL[2849.269];B[he]BL[814.319];W[ic]
C[naturesway [1d\]: randomness alone
cjalden [2k\]: I remember when people said computers would never \
beat humans at chess also
naturesway [1d\]: in programing could not work
naturesway [1d\]: ever
bourbaki [?\]: the creativity is an artificial human narrative
gepay [2k\]: not today anyway will the computer overcome
bourbaki [?\]: randomness is not necessary if you can search literally \
every game
naturesway [1d\]: never two games the same on 19x19
naturesway [1d\]: in one's lifetime
Nicl22 [7k\]: computers can be very creative
Nicl22 [7k\]: : )
Nicl22 [7k\]: look at all creative moves mogo has played in this \
gmae
naturesway [1d\]: yea right
JpKitten [4k\]: True =)
bourbaki [?\]: a computer can do a lifetime's worth of thinking \
in a nanosecond]
WL[2843.451];B[ib]
C[azndemon [9k?\]: boo for computers
tadanobu [10k\]: go in 5x5 has been solved.... Of course it is \
really really far from 9x9. BUT... 9x9 go will be solved one \
day. (extensive play or mathematical)...and some day, prolly \
far far away, 19x19 too. But humans will still have fun with \
it]
BL[747.07];W[ia]
C[mita [8k\]: here is a question, where is black territory?
gryn [2d?\]: this is true exhibitionism: showing something that \
no one else wants to see
toshio989 [-\]: humans have a more coplex thought process based \
on experience knowledge and emotion, which makes us superior
Eup [-\]: wait, i think i know black's strategy. Having your opponent \
role his eyes so much the optic nerve snap... 
Nicl22 [7k\]: black has a point of territory on d8
Eup [-\]: roll*
calbonga [13k\]: lol
alexanro [6k\]: tadanobu: +1
gorgias [5k\]: i guess we are in presence of  "nanosujis".
bourbaki [?\]: this is a completely silly argument
mita [8k\]: that's nothing lol
gryn [2d?\]: if humans are superiors to computers, why can't we \
make computers superior to humans, hmm?
bourbaki [?\]: to assert that computers will not one day destroy \
humans in go is to say that there is a limit to computer power
calbonga [13k\]: should've resigned earlier Mogo
calbonga [13k\]: sry to say
naturesway [1d\]: there is a limit
calbonga [13k\]: but gg anyways
naturesway [1d\]: just like in calculus
naturesway [1d\]: :)
azndemon [9k?\]: i like calculus
bobo [15k\]: ive been winning alot of games and my rating doest \
raise  >?
bobo [15k\]: does it take alot of games
bobo [15k\]: ?
TarasBob [6k\]: yea
mita [8k\]: silly bot
bobo [15k\]: i juts beat 2 5ks 
bobo [15k\]: in a row
bobo [15k\]: and didnt even move up 1
Shadowrun [10k\]: maybe its an opening exploit where mogo fails
bobo [15k\]: with only 4 stones
TarasBob [6k\]: u gotta keep playing
bobo [15k\]: these two at it agagin
bobo [15k\]: any more 19 19 between the two tonight ?
bobo [15k\]: mogo got owned]
WL[2839.378])
